free will vs. election???????

[HisWitness]

Nonsense. A total straw man regarding true biblical soteriology. You're simply placing your opinion in Scripture and using an eisegetical analysis on which to base your erroneously garnered conclusions.

There will be no excuse, thus the responsibility of man and Sovereignty of God. You're giving man an excuse before God that it would be unjust to punish him if his will isn't free. That's exactly what you've implied.

God is just in showing mercy to whom He wills and punishing and hardening whom He wills. He's Sovereign in that way. You're showing you simply don't like that Sovereignty. Put it this way, God can damn any person He desires to damn, and to save whom He wills to save -- whether they have a free will or not -- in fact, He has done exactly this throughout history.

ANother thing, of course it takes God to bring a person to will to be saved -- that's a given -- but this doesn't take place in every man woman and child, just as Jesus didn't go heal every single person -- but chose to whom He would heal at times. All of this for an illustration of His Sovereignty in salvation.





Now you move from man saving himself by choice, and that if man doesn't have free will then God is unfair and must give it to him (as if man has rights) and of man in control of his own destiny in decisional evangelism to now moving toward giving God a little glory for it all.

How sweet.

Not really, it's quite patronizing.



Straw man argument. Mans will isn't free. He's enslaved to sin, only Jesus makes us free. You do err greatly. You have something to boast in -- that you chose -- but there is no boasting in salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31 shows that it is God who chose and there is no boasting nor is there any factor in salvation to which man could boast (to which you leave ample room for) and which is in fact what you are actually doing.

You should underline 'God chose' in this passage and thank Him salvation only comes by His choice.

- Blessings

you mis-understand what I have stated again friend--Man cannot save himself PERIOD.Adam could have chosen to not eat of the tree--but he is like all other men--he loved that which was forbidden--Man chooses evil over God and the pleasures of this life over Christ--man does this because he loves sin and not God--all you are doing is giving man a excuse to have before God by saying he is bound and can do nothing--he can do something and he wills to do evil.

Yes God does the choosing--because man will never choose God --not because he has no free will--but because he uses his free will to choose evil
And its totally by Grace anyone is saved--but man is to blame and not God--man chooses Sin--BUT God chooses man.:love2::love2:

 

[DrJamesAch]

We definitely are all sinners as your scriptures suggest. This does not inhibit our ability to accept Gods Gift. When Christmas happens and you get a gift, and it has your name on it, do you take it and open it? of course you do, so if the cheque was written for the penalty of sin. For all those that believe in Christ if they will take it. Then those will take it will be saved.

Also, The scriptures John 1:13 and Romans 9:16, in context don't inhibit our will to choose Christ.



You realized you were saved? so this is the whole... predestined thing showing itself (im not smart like you guys) so you were predestined, but my family was not or may not be, God loves some and not all. Certainly the idea that God loves the world was made known in John 3:16, where "world" is kos-mos, and whosoever means all or any, so any who believeth in Him will have eternal life.



Why send a preacher if they are predestined? why even bother calling if they are elect regardless.

They proof text John 1:13 and skip over John 1:12 where RECEIVING Christ came before getting the POWER TO BECOME the sons of God. In Calvnism, you get the POWER to RECEIVE. They got it backwards.

And then there's the matter of them constantly refering to faith as a gift which is NO WHERE in the Bible, based on ONE VERSE (EPH 2:8) that is misquoted where salvation is the gift, not faith.

And of course the timely missue of Romans 9 where the entire context is related to CORPORATE ISRAEL and not individual salvation. Paul makes it clear who he's talking about in Romans 9:3 "my KINSMEN ACCORDING TO THE FLESH". Calvinists rip 3 texts out of Romans 9 and build a false doctrine around it, and completely leave Israel out of the future (which is why most Calvinists do not believe in the Rev 20:4 thousand year reign-amellenialism).

 

[preacher4truth]

We definitely are all sinners as your scriptures suggest. This does not inhibit our ability to accept Gods Gift. When Christmas happens and you get a gift, and it has your name on it, do you take it and open it? of course you do, so if the cheque was written for the penalty of sin. For all those that believe in Christ if they will take it. Then those will take it will be saved.

We only believe by the power of God, Eph. 1:19. Faith comes from His Word Romans 10:17, not from within, it is not inherent, it is supernatural and outside of our person. I've heard illustrations like yours for years -- similar to this: 'Faith is simply like sitting in a chair and believing it will support you, that is all you have to do with Jesus' and disregards faith as a gift and that it is supernatural and it is by Gods power we are able to believe, again Eph. 1:19. If you sincerely believe all they have to do is decide, well, get on a PA system and have them all vote 'yes'.

Also, The scriptures John 1:13 and Romans 9:16, in context don't inhibit our will to choose Christ.

In context they say (with some word study on your part) that it is not by mans determinitive choice, or mans will. But you say it is mans will. God rejects that. It's thus all by Him and not us.

You realized you were saved? so this is the whole... predestined thing showing itself (im not smart like you guys) so you were predestined, but my family was not or may not be, God loves some and not all. Certainly the idea that God loves the world was made known in John 3:16, where "world" is kos-mos, and whosoever means all or any, so any who believeth in Him will have eternal life.

All elect were predestined. Elect and saved are synonymous terms.

Kosmos does not mean every single person -- it means an age. None can believe without God's power and belief isn't mental assent. Many persons have been deceived with this 'all you have to do is choose' and they are still as lost as ever -- no fruit.

'Whosoever' refers to the elect whom He calls and saves, 1 Peter 1:1ff, and it is He that makes us willing, not us. We were enemies and hostile toward Him ...then 'but God' and He gets ALL the glory.

Why send a preacher if they are predestined? why even bother calling if they are elect regardless.

It is God's means and because we are commanded to do so. Read carefully Paul's attitude on this in 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

 

[Iconoclast]

webdog

There really is no point in even debating or discussing these things for those who hold this view, in fact if he and I haven't been sovereignly granted or allowed to believe your view, you are rebelling by going against God's plan for us in trying to convince us.[/QUOTE]

No...a christian is called to be faithful and use the means God gives.God has ordained means such as this interaction to accomplish His design.
As God has not allowed agreement on this is not mysterious.You know 90% of the time we do not agree is over the fall and Romans 5.
I see Adam as dead....you have Adam only being wounded.
Awaken has been caught up in the "gifts"...and has perhaps not realized how much other teaching there is to study.
right now he is looking at the teaching from an emotional level.When and if it moves to a more consistently scriptural based look he will be fine.

I never tell anyone believe what I do...because i say so. Any person needs to believe what they do,because they believe that is what scripture teaches.

In reality all determinists who discuss the topic truly believe in contra causal free will ...

I am not sure what a determinist is, or contra casual free will is,as these are carnal philosophical terms that exist outside of the realm I deal in.
Man has self will,and can choose this or that...but the will is bound.
Absolute free will does not exist. the will is always bound by the nature.

Saved men are made willing and able to begin and worship and serve God.
You are a family man,and profess to be serving God. I am not on a quest nor do I have to get you, or trick you into believing as I do. that is between you and God. Do I see you as being in error on this....yes of course..it is very clear to me. If i can be of help to you I will...if not it is okay.

 

[Amy.G]

you say the same thing about the rich man and lazarus being a parable--yet you say it is literal--so why do you say this parable of the Steward's Servants is nor literal ??

Where did I say that?

J? Is that you? Say it ain't so!

 

[preacher4truth]

you mis-understand what I have stated again friend--Man cannot save himself PERIOD.

Not at all -- for you cannot see what you are really saying yourself.

 

[Amy.G]

Um, you weren't too far off when pointing out the redefining definitions in her Calvinism. Check out the above definitions of faith. Faith is a fruit, but yet Calvinism says faith is a gift. Fruit can be the result of a work, but if faith is a work (as Calvinism erroneously defines it), that makes work a gift, then there's no gift that can produce works or fruit.


So then the only solution is (snap finger here), change the definition of faith from text to text!

That slight of hand was so slick nobody caught it.

Why are you so suspicious? I have no agenda. Faith is listed as a fruit of the spirit along with love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, Meekness, temperance:........

I have said NOTHING of saving faith that God gives. This spiritual gift is something else because it is listed along with other gifts that are only present in a spiritually indwelt man.

Why start an argument where there is none?

 

[agedman]

They proof text John 1:13 and skip over John 1:12 where RECEIVING Christ came before getting the POWER TO BECOME the sons of God. In Calvnism, you get the POWER to RECEIVE. They got it backwards.

And then there's the matter of them constantly refering to faith as a gift which is NO WHERE in the Bible, based on ONE VERSE (EPH 2:8) that is misquoted where salvation is the gift, not faith.

And of course the timely missue of Romans 9 where the entire context is related to CORPORATE ISRAEL and not individual salvation. Paul makes it clear who he's talking about in Romans 9:3 "my KINSMEN ACCORDING TO THE FLESH". Calvinists rip 3 texts out of Romans 9 and build a false doctrine around it, and completely leave Israel out of the future (which is why most Calvinists do not believe in the Rev 20:4 thousand year reign-amellenialism).

So you would ascend verse 12 above verse 13 of John 1?

There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.​

​

It is not good that I have to correct your interpretation of this passage.

Look to how John sequences the narrative.

He first states an action and then a qualifier or more information about that subject (see bold).

He does the very same thing in that latter part of the paragraph. He states an action and then he states the steps taken for that action.

Are you so hung up in trying to prove your point of view that you missed the actual rendering of the Scriptures?

 

[HisWitness]

Not at all -- for you cannot see what you
are really saying yourself.

yes my friend I do see what im saying--the ONLY difference in what you and I are saying here is that you are giving man an excuse to present before God if he is never saved in this life and I am not giving man that excuse but holding man himself FULLY accountable before God.:love2::love2:

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon,

You have been spot on about the character of the faux-Dr. and also HoS. I actually admire you for hanging in their with them. You have much more patience and tolerance than I do. The faux-Dr. is just that. He cheapens the value of the ink on his self-bequeathed degree. HoS? There is no depth that he is not willing to sink to. The good news is that there is always hope that God will grant repentance. Short of that I cannot read their posts anymore and have taken steps to assure that.

Keep fighting the good fight.

Brother Herald, thanks for the encouraging words.I agree that 2tim2
comes into play on this:
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

In order to grow and practice this....opposition must come in what ever form it takes...
Sometimes there are hostile persons who get frustrated when called to account.The frustration leads to the hostility. The hostility let's me know that most likely I am doing what i should be ,although I need to improve how to communicate,and sharpen my discernment as to where the defective theology manifests.
Away from the keyboard the Lord is providing daily opportunities to address gospel issues with those who are outside the Kingdom. the friction and interaction here ,and hearing the errors expressed...sharpens us for gospel presentations in face to face encounters.
When the level of discourse sinks to a base level as it does on here ,more than it should we all lose in that no one makes progress....
There are a core of persons that are coming just to resist.
There are honest inquirers
There are those who are graceful and encourage
There are some who impart good knowledge

With my current job...I have time that many others do not have to participate.
Others who are more qualified do not make time for it...because of the base nature of the resistance. In time as error is exposed it will change.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not too far back he was defending HWs terminologies, once the majority crowd started gathering against HW, then P4T switchied gears and compelled him to be circumcised LOL

He 'switched gears " when the poster began to deviate from a mainstream biblical path....as he should have.

 

[preacher4truth]

yes my friend I do see what im saying--the ONLY difference in what you and I are saying here is that you are giving man an excuse to present before God if he is never saved in this life and I am not giving man that excuse but holding man himself FULLY accountable before God.:love2::love2:

Straw man (i.e. you assumptively misrepresent me).

'So that they are without excuse' (Romans 1:20) indictment comes from general revelation and is an indictment upon all of mankind. In other words, all are already guilty before God -- prior to the general and effectual call to salvation.

 

[Gorship]

We only believe by the power of God, Eph. 1:19. Faith comes from His Word Romans 10:17, not from within, it is not inherent, it is supernatural and outside of our person. I've heard illustrations like yours for years -- similar to this: 'Faith is simply like sitting in a chair and believing it will support you, that is all you have to do with Jesus' and disregards faith as a gift and that it is supernatural and it is by Gods power we are able to believe, again Eph. 1:19. If you sincerely believe all they have to do is decide, well, get on a PA system and have them all vote 'yes'.

We should be on PA systems proclaiming Gods promise to those who believe. Thats why open air preaching was and should still be a very big thing we are doing. As for "people say they believe but they act the same", we can make a discussion on what, a heart felt decision looks like. Furthermore our Gospel presentation should represent that. Ephesians 1:19, doesnt speak at all towards this.. not sure why your using it. Actually Ephesians 1 is a great passage as it talks of the Predestined life of the new believer. I have no doubt that God has a predestined path for those who believe. I call it Heaven

In context they say (with some word study on your part) that it is not by mans determinitive choice, or mans will. But you say it is mans will. God rejects that. It's thus all by Him and not us.

Not sure what this even means. However it is clear that we need to believe in Jesus and His redemptive work, refer back to John 3:16

All elect were predestined. Elect and saved are synonymous terms.

Yes ok.. but this is bad logic.

1) Elect were predestined
2) elected are saved people
3) all saved people were predestined

Your first premise I disagree with thus the rest crumbles.

Kosmos does not mean every single person -- it means an age. None can believe without God's power and belief isn't mental assent. Many persons have been deceived with this 'all you have to do is choose' and they are still as lost as ever -- no fruit.

'Whosoever' refers to the elect whom He calls and saves, 1 Peter 1:1ff, and it is He that makes us willing, not us. We were enemies and hostile toward Him ...then 'but God' and He gets ALL the glory.

you will need to talk to Strongs about the definitions as that's who you are disagreeing with.

False converts are a problem, we need to preach the full coin of Faith, which includes repentance.

It is God's means and because we are commanded to do so. Read carefully Paul's attitude on this in 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

Thats a Great passage to get into the trenches to save people.... this doesn't work for you. If God Predestines and Elects them, it is not as if we have some midas touch to awaken them to their inner self. We shake people violently to the truth of the Gospel that they might humble themselves to Christ. I agree that in the fullness of time, God knows who the elect will be, but he makes no such mention of forcing their hands in making them such.

 

[webdog]

webdog

No...a christian is called to be faithful and use the means God gives.God has ordained means such as this interaction to accomplish His design.

So God argues with Himself? God decreed for us to believe as we do...and then for us to try to convince each other different than what He decreed

As God has not allowed agreement on this is not mysterious.You know 90% of the time we do not agree is over the fall and Romans 5.
I see Adam as dead....you have Adam only being wounded.

I've never once said Adam was only 'wounded'.

Awaken has been caught up in the "gifts"...and has perhaps not realized how much other teaching there is to study.
right now he is looking at the teaching from an emotional level.When and if it moves to a more consistently scriptural based look he will be fine.

No, Awaked has done what God wants us to do...'let US reason TOGETHER says the Lord.'

I am not sure what a determinist is, or contra casual free will is,as these are carnal philosophical terms that exist outside of the realm I deal in.
Man has self will,and can choose this or that...but the will is bound.
Absolute free will does not exist. the will is always bound by the nature.

...and this is not a carnal, philosophical term? :laugh:

Saved men are made willing and able to begin and worship and serve God.
You are a family man,and profess to be serving God. I am not on a quest nor do I have to get you, or trick you into believing as I do. that is between you and God. Do I see you as being in error on this....yes of course..it is very clear to me. If i can be of help to you I will...if not it is okay.

Thanks for the offer.

 

[HisWitness]

Straw man (i.e. you assumptively misrepresent me).

'So that they are without excuse' (Romans 1:20) indictment comes from general revelation and is an indictment upon all of mankind. In other words, all are already guilty before God -- prior to the general and effectual call to salvation.

I see that we agree not to agree its alright

but im not teaching free will like your mindset has it to be set in stone--by no means do I hold to the way the mainstream teaches free will--they make man able to save himself--I do no such thing--but I do not neglect that man is totally responsible for his actions either.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ach

Speaking of birds of a feather:

:applause:Yes....Herald is also a sinner saved by grace,and an encouragement and has a greater degree of gift than I do. Herald has a more gracious spirit than I do...and quite honestly could shred you and your ideas like childs play.
He does not desire to 'waste time' with someone who cannot let His yes ,be yes and his no, no.
You do not feel you need to change...you do what you want. Others do also.
from what you are posting there are several areas {other than the Obvious incident} there are other areas where you post extreme error...such as
hebrews is written for Jewish tribulation saints...not gentile christians???
That is what happens when you set yourself apart from the mainstream confessions of faith...you wind up with all manner of error,as you, Van, and Winman demonstrate in virtually every post.

Your boasting of no creed....is a creed in and of itself.You by your own testimony are not accountable to anyone....but you are;
2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.

3 The eyes of the Lord are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

4 A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit

 

[preacher4truth]

I see that we agree not to agree its alright

but im not teaching free will like your mindset has it to be set in stone--by no means do I hold to the way the mainstream teaches free will--they make man able to save himself--I do no such thing--but I do not neglect that man is totally responsible for his actions either.

Cool. Now, I ask kindly, please don't misrepresent my position in the future.

I'll reiterate -- you clearly do not see what you are really saying. I've been where you are, when you understand this side you will then see clearly this error and not until then.

 

[Iconoclast]

webdog

hello WD

So God argues with Himself?

No....that is a strange idea.....let's think about that again...

God decreed for us to believe as we do...and then for us to try to convince each other different than what He decreed

As it has already come to pass it is ordained.the interaction we have is for a reason. That reason belongs to God.Sometimes i believe it is used by God to make us seek Him in his word that much more ...and to be approved

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

I've never once said Adam was only 'wounded'

.

Of course not! You would not say that in the way I have written it because you know that would be WRONG:thumbsup:
And yet,as I observe your posts....what you post ....the content of it , can only be posted if you have a wounded Adam. That is how i see your posts and others in here. If you saw it the same way...we would not be at odd's as often as we are.

No, Awaked has done what God wants us to do...'let US reason TOGETHER says the Lord.'

If my guess is right...Awakened is somewhat startled as he should be, that there are many branches of theology inter twined to sort these things out.
His head is probably swimming right now ...as he is trying to take in much data in a short amount of time. he is going with an emotional base for now, but that will change in time.

...and this is not a carnal, philosophical term? :laugh:

No..it is a biblical term and biblical teaching and philosophy as Jesus opened it up in Jn 8:type:

Thanks for the offer.

Anytime WD....

 

[HisWitness]

Cool. Now, I ask kindly, please don't misrepresent my position in the future.

I'll reiterate -- you clearly do not see what you are really saying. I've been where you are, when you understand this side you will then see clearly this error and not until then.

I have been on your side--your not seeing what im saying because you are putting it in the mold of what others teach about free will--I am not doing so.

your mindset is already set in stone and you cant see but 1 meaning of free will and truly that is the wrong meaning --but that's not the meaning I am bringing forth friend--if what you say is correct--then man is not responsible for his actions because he is bound and can do nothing--but the fact of the matter is man chooses with his will to do evil because he is evil--that is using his free will to choose--and he will choose evil everytime--my friend it is man's fault and not God's for man's condition--man has the ability to choose but he chooses evil--therefore God has to intervene on man's account or he will NEVER be saved in this life. I think its clear as mud myself--sorry you cant see it yet.:love2::love2:

 

[preacher4truth]

your mindset is already set in stone and you cant see but 1 meaning of free will and truly that is the wrong meaning

I can't see but one meaning of free will? lol...

What I said was, and what this was about is that the lost do not have free will.

You're having serious trouble staying on topic.

That and yet again you bring in another straw man, and top it with a red herring as you continue to misrepresent my position.