free will vs. election???????

[convicted1]

I was listening to D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones preach on this. Great message! He asked why a certain man gets nothing from preaching, and why yet another falls under conviction to repentance.

Concluding he says that the word of God comes with power to some, and not another (as per 1 Thess. 1:4ff?) and asked if any there were those to whom it came with power and converted them. As you have said none of this happens without the Spirit (in another thread by implication).

Such is the Spirit of God...as wind, going where it listeth (determines/desires) -- John 3:8 thus showing Sovereignty.

Not all things can be proven by a verse or verses, but upon contemplation of the entire counsel of God within soteriology.

- Blessings

The reason why I asked him, Brother Rob, is he seems to be advocating universalism. If he does indeed believe that all will be saved, I want to see how he views the two calls, if he sees all fell in Adam, and all are risen in Christ. All did die in Adam, but only some will be made alive in Christ. Both sides of this debate believe that.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

the MANY in both cases are ALL of mankind

Says the one who asked "forgiveness" from Spurgeon

 

[HeirofSalvation]

ALL were made sinners through Adam(already done-nothing more has to be done--men are all sinners)
ALL shall be made righteous through Christ(something is yet to happen to make all righteous)

Says the one who "asked forgiveness" from Spurgeon.

 

[Iconoclast]

awaken

I have read many threads on free will vs. election on this board. I did not realize how many Baptist really believe that only certain ones are chosen and others are rejected
I would like to hear from some of those that believe this.

awaken,

as in the parable of the sower.....fowls of the air come to take away the seed of the word....

you asked for some of us who believe the bible on these truths to explain how and why we would believe the scriptural testimony on these things...some have responded and offered some good explanation, but than those who do not believe these truth s as fowls of the air have come to take away the seed....

Team anti-cal jihad has jumped in and instead of keeping this simple about the biblical teaching ....has clouded the waters with ungodly statements,personal attacks, carnal reasoning , philosophy and novelties.

The offer of help to you was a sincere offer despite the ungodly comments that have been made. if you want to know of the teaching...ask those who believe it.....not those who reject these truths:wavey::thumbs:
Anti-cal

 

[HeirofSalvation]

think upon this again--think if God concluded ALL under Sin(through 1 man's disobedience)he did so that he might have mercy upon ALL(through 1 man's obedience)its true God chooses some in each generation for his purpose and Glory to shine unto the world to see--but the Glorius truth is that through 1 man's obedience MANY(all) SHALL BE MADE righteous--either in this life or after death they will come through the FIRE in repentance unto Christ--others reject this truth--but the text is very clear that ALL SHALL BE MADE(Future tense statement that will be accomplished)RIGHTEOUS

Many through 1 man were made(past tense statement that was accomplished through 1 man)SINNERS

Many through 1 man shall be made(future tense statement that will be accomplished in God;s time)RIGHTEOUS

Says the one who "asked forgiveness" from C.H. Spurgeon.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

H.W......

Did C.H. Spurgeon "forgive" you?

or are you still on the outs?

 

[Van]

Nice defection

Van, you and I spent many days and posts in discussion on this topic. I only respond here to let others know that there is another view.

Certainly "many are called" as it is with all humankind. God imprinting the ten commandments into every person is an indication that there is a call to what is right and wrong. But, "few are chosen" cannot be ignored. For out of all humankind that is called the only ones who will respond are those in whom God, through His own purposed work, has chosen.

I doubt that God who knows all things from the beginning has put blinders on and waits to see who is born and just who, in our lifetime, He will decide to choose. There is no "corporate" salvation supportable in the Scriptures. All salvation is individual, and directed to specific individuals.

Just letting casual readers know that Van and I have discussed this matter, before.

1) There is no viable answer to the question of why God who desires all to be saved would only provide the opportunity for salvation to a chosen few. It is irrational.

2) The call of the gospel is not by imprinting the 10 commandments, it is presenting the good news than although you have sinned, and deserve eternal punishment, Christ died for you, and if you wholeheartedly trust in Him for your salvation, because He arose from the dead, and believe in the One (God Almighty) who sent Him, God is trustworthy and will credit your faith as righteousness, and place you spiritually in Christ, for whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

3) Scripture says we are chosen through faith in the truth, not chosen and given faith.

4) There certainly is not any salvation by corporate election, however that is not my view. I say we are individually chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, based on many verses including 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[HisWitness]

The reason why I asked him, Brother Rob, is he seems to be advocating universalism. If he does indeed believe that all will be saved, I want to see how he views the two calls, if he sees all fell in Adam, and all are risen in Christ. All did die in Adam, but only some will be made alive in Christ. Both sides of this debate believe that.

the main problem of today is the bag over peoples heads that are blocking them from seeing this truth--the meaning and understanding of the word Aeon in its diff word translations in our bible--and also the purpose of the FIRE(Lake of Fire--this is only mentioned 1 time in our bibles in Revelation)

I can gather at least 8 scriptures from the bible that will prove to all that the translation of the word Aeon into Forever was not right--it meant Age Lasting not eternal

For these causes men are blinded by tradition and cant see any further along the road until they clear the road

If you would like me to post the scriptures proving that the words Olam(old testament)Aeon(new testament) words which have the EXACT same meaning didn't mean eternal in their translations--I will be happy to do so:love2:

 

[preacher4truth]

The reason why I asked him, Brother Rob, is he seems to be advocating universalism. If he does indeed believe that all will be saved, I want to see how he views the two calls, if he sees all fell in Adam, and all are risen in Christ. All did die in Adam, but only some will be made alive in Christ. Both sides of this debate believe that.

The effectual call and general call do not imply universalism whatsoever brother Willis. That is what HisWitness was conveying, the two calls, not universalism.

I think you then misunderstand.

The example I've given from Lloyd-Jones shows a distinction between both calls.

- Blessings

 

[convicted1]

The effectual call and general call do not imply universalism whatsoever brother Willis. That is what HisWitness was conveying, the two calls, not universalism.

I think you then misunderstand.

The example I've given from Lloyd-Jones shows a distinction between both calls.

- Blessings

Sorry about my "muddier than sump water" response Brother Rob. Seeing that he is, indeed, advocating universalism by using those scriptures he uses, I was wanting to guage his belief on the two calls, seeing if he sees the two calls the same way he misuses those which he believes supports all will eventually be saved and go to heaven. If he's that far off with his universalism beliefs, then I wanted to see if he was "far off" on his view of the two calls. Did that clear things up? I was guaging his response by his univeralism belief.

ETA: What he's advocating is eerily akin to the ME doctrine that got many banned on here about five years ago.

 

[HisWitness]

the main problem of today is the bag over peoples heads that are blocking them from seeing this truth--the meaning and understanding of the word Aeon in its diff word translations in our bible--and also the purpose of the FIRE(Lake of Fire--this is only mentioned 1 time in our bibles in Revelation)

I can gather at least 8 scriptures from the bible that will prove to all that the translation of the word Aeon into Forever was not right--it meant Age Lasting not eternal

For these causes men are blinded by tradition and cant see any further along the road until they clear the road

If you would like me to post the scriptures proving that the words Olam(old testament)Aeon(new testament) words which have the EXACT same meaning didn't mean eternal in their translations--I will be happy to do so:love2:

here is one scripture that proves the forever translation was not correct--pls read with the intent to honestly see what it is talking about instead of just flying through it so you can post why you say it is heresy

Jonah 2-6

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains;the earth with her bars was about me FOR EVER:YET hast thou brought up my life from corruption,O Lord my God.

Now it the earth's bars was about Jonah FOREVER as the translation is worded,then explain how he got out of the whale's belly and no longer was there--if the translation of the word Olam there meant eternal--then Jonah would still be about the earth's bars NOW and forever?

The proper translation should have been age lasting(which means a short or long duration of time--which God only knows)because Jonah did get out of there after 3 days and nights(that's age lasting--short or long duration of time

 

[preacher4truth]

The reason why I asked him, Brother Rob, is he seems to be advocating universalism. If he does indeed believe that all will be saved, I want to see how he views the two calls, if he sees all fell in Adam, and all are risen in Christ. All did die in Adam, but only some will be made alive in Christ. Both sides of this debate believe that.

OK. I must be wrong in my assessment then. I will then watch for answers to this. I love you in Christ brother Willis.

- Blessings

 

[HisWitness]

here is one scripture that proves the forever translation was not correct--pls read with the intent to honestly see what it is talking about instead of just flying through it so you can post why you say it is heresy

Jonah 2-6

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains;the earth with her bars was about me FOR EVER:YET hast thou brought up my life from corruption,O Lord my God.

Now it the earth's bars was about Jonah FOREVER as the translation is worded,then explain how he got out of the whale's belly and no longer was there--if the translation of the word Olam there meant eternal--then Jonah would still be about the earth's bars NOW and forever?

The proper translation should have been age lasting(which means a short or long duration of time--which God only knows)because Jonah did get out of there after 3 days and nights(that's age lasting--short or long duration of time

Here are more--pls read with the intent to learn and understand or it will be in vain------------read each scripture given for the text.

Below is a list of Scriptures which clearly show that many of our leading selling English translations have mistranslated the Greek word “aion” and its Hebrew counterpart “olam.” Surely the Hebrews and Greeks had something entirely different in mind when using these words than how we understand the English words “eternal,” “everlasting,” “for ever and ever,” etc.:

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7), that is--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ez.16:53‑55);

Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jer. 30:12), that is‑‑until‑‑the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jer. 30:17);

The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Mic. 1:9) that is‑‑until‑‑ Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ez. 16:53);

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27) that is‑until‑‑the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6);

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever", that is‑‑until‑‑the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is‑‑until‑‑they "were shattered" Hab. 3:6);

The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be ”perpetual" that is‑‑until‑‑Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Lev. 6:12‑13, Heb. 8:6‑13);

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever," that is--until-‑the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);

Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jer. 25:27)‑‑until‑‑the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ez. 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jer. 49:39).

"Moab is destroyed" (Jer. 48:4, 42)‑‑until‑‑the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jer. 48:47);

Israel's judgment lasts "forever"‑‑until‑‑the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13‑15).

So, narrow is the way to life and few find it, that is‑‑until‑‑His church confiscates the "strong man's" booty, setting the captives free so God becomes all in all (Isa. 61, Luke 11:21‑22, Matt. 7:13; 16:18, 1 Cor. 15:24‑28);

God is now calling out "a people for His name"‑‑an "elect" or chosen priesthood people who will represent and reflect His loving nature. Many are called and few are chosen—that is, until‑‑the small chosen priesthood people, by the Spirit, restore "David's tabernacle" so ALL mankind may inquire of the Lord. Thus we see that the church is the first-born, the beginning‑‑until‑‑in ALL (later born new creatures in Christ) our Lord will have supremacy (Amos 9:11‑12, Matt. 22:14, Acts 15:14‑18, Eph. 3:15, Col. 1 18).

All manner of sin will be forgiven in this AGE as well as in the AGE (not eternity) to come, except blasphemy against God's Spirit‑‑until‑‑such blasphemy finds pardon in the fullness of the times (or ages) when God unites all in Christ. For the Lord does not retain His anger forever because He delights in mercy (Matt. 12:32; 18:11,21‑22, Eph. 1:9‑11, Rev. 4:11; 5:13, Mic. 7:18‑20). (Much of the above list was provided by Charles Slagle)

Our justice systems, as faulty as they are, attempt to fit the punishment to the crime. There are many different forms and lengths of punishment to satisfy our moral sense of justice. But according to modern Christendom, all crimes (sins) committed here on earth will receive the same punishment AND it will be far more severe than the most cruel tyrants of the world have inflicted upon mankind. Modern Christian justice has NOT made God a just judge, it has made Him out to be the most barbaric of dictators this world has ever seen. Hitler would be a saint compared to the image of God as judge the church has portrayed of Him.

The Hebrew word Olam is the equivalent of the Greek Word "aion." If olam meant "forever," why do we find constructs which tell us there is a "beyond" this "forever," as in Exodus 15:18. When we look at the Latin in this case, we begin to see how this great error came into our vulgar translations. The Latin Vulgate reads "Dominus regnabit in aeturnum et ultra," "The Lord will reign unto (or into) eternity and beyond." How is such a thing possible?

If aion means eternity, why does this word appear in the plural form? Why does it appear in double constructs such as aion of the aion, aion of the aions, and aions of the aions? Is Greek such a confusing language that one can take several different variations of the same word and simple stick them all under "everlasting" or "forever and ever" or is Greek much more exact than our modern Bible translators make it appear to be? When one looks at all the different forms of this Greek word and how many of our modern translations have rendered this word, it becomes quite apparent to the neutral observer that some twisting of meanings has been going on. "Aionas ton aionon," for example is rendered "for ever AND ever" by many leading Bible translations. Ask a scholar what the meaning of "ton" is. You will NEVER hear one say it means "and." This should have correctly been translated "of the" and NOT "and." This is just one of many examples that many translators have been translating according to tradition, rather than what the Greek and Hebrew means. The first revision of the King James Bible, the Revised Version and the American Version, made many corrections in the text and placed many corrections in the margins. Due to subsequent pressure from the Fundamentalists, they have since removed all of the marginal notes which would aid one to seeing that the King James translation was NOT true to the original Greek. Go find a 1901 American Standard. You will see these corrections in the margins.

 

[convicted1]

here is one scripture that proves the forever translation was not correct--pls read with the intent to honestly see what it is talking about instead of just flying through it so you can post why you say it is heresy

Jonah 2-6

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains;the earth with her bars was about me FOR EVER:YET hast thou brought up my life from corruption,O Lord my God.

Now it the earth's bars was about Jonah FOREVER as the translation is worded,then explain how he got out of the whale's belly and no longer was there--if the translation of the word Olam there meant eternal--then Jonah would still be about the earth's bars NOW and forever?

The proper translation should have been age lasting(which means a short or long duration of time--which God only knows)because Jonah did get out of there after 3 days and nights(that's age lasting--short or long duration of time

Correct. Jonah was a type of Christ, yet not the very image. As Jonah was in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth(Matt. 12:40).

 

[convicted1]

Brother Rob,

Do I need to show you any more proof that the "ME stew" is cooking on the stove? If he gets that from what he read, then maybe his view of the two calls could be just as off. I am not saying he's wrong, but I want his view on the two calls, not the ME verses he's abusing right now.

 

[Iconoclast]

awaken

But doesn't God love everyone?
All this is a little overwhelming...but I am willing to have an open mind!

The bible describes God as being good to all men....the rain shines upon the just and the unjust.
We are also told that the goodness of God is meant to lead men to repentance.
We are told to love our enemies, so in that way it is also an expression of God's love to all men.

That however is NOT...the saving love of God which the bible ONLY SAYS is found IN CHRIST....for example;
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1] here the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts....us who are elected called and justified

2]by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us

The unsaved do not have the Holy Ghost...so the love of God cannot rightly be said to be....in their hearts

and here....
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Now others in here are going to cloud the issue as you have already seen...but look where the love of God is here....toward us....not all....
How can we know that? look at the whole chapter...is it talking about all men who ever lived or the US...who are Justified?

watch:

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

You can see it is the justified elect in view....

I have been taught so many wrong doctrines...but once I see it in scriptures I embrace it!

That is what we are here for.All of us have been taught many things...some good, some not so good...

I still have more questions than answers on this subject!

If you want your questions answered by those who believe this biblical teaching....follow what we say....on a legal pad, or note book.

keep it apart from the nonsense, philosophy, accusations, carnal reasoning, and supposed LOGIC SAYS IT must mean...kind of doubt filled unbelief that you will no doubt see coming...

You asked about Election .....not about....watch out for ICON remarks..
i am not the focus here...calvin is not the focus here,...it is about the word and the teaching of truth.
these who oppose truth oppose themselves and seek to infect you with the same doubt and unbelief. As time permits, i will address their attacks and foolish reasonings...and they will be dismissed like when you cover a windshield with the liquid RAIN EX...
the water like these false objections cannot stick...they keep coming like the rain does...but that which is false rolls right off:thumbs::wavey:

 

[Amy.G]

Brother Rob,

Do I need to show you any more proof that the "ME stew" is cooking on the stove?

Yes I smell that stew as well. Peeewwww!

 

[preacher4truth]

Brother Rob,

Do I need to show you any more proof that the "ME stew" is cooking on the stove? If he gets that from what he read, then maybe his view of the two calls could be just as off. I am not saying he's wrong, but I want his view on the two calls, not the ME verses he's abusing right now.

Well brother I've cooked and ate a chicken between now and then, the toothpick is in full implementation, the 3 year old is taxing, and I will wait for the popcorn 'cause obviously I've missed out completely on the context!

Yet, I trust your observations. That and you're a RAIDERS fan so we are brothers x 2!

- Blessings

P.S. That and my wife says we ain't gettin' no english bulldog!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[HisWitness]

Correct. Jonah was a type of Christ, yet not the very image. As Jonah was in the whale's belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth(Matt. 12:40).

you have missed the very purpose of what it was posted for friend--read it again and see that forever did not mean eternal(the word Olam should have been translated Age lasting and not forever--this error is in the old and new testament by the translators of some of our bibles

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh boy........