Free Will

[tyndale1946]

I believe our new member has left some clues in some other threads.

Welcome to the BaptistBoard, Martindr.

You're right Rob, it was late and I was heading to bed, when he posted it and he was online, then after I posted it he was gone... Never got my answer... My stand?... I just woke up, I'll get back to you brethren but I don't agree with Mitchell!... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

A dead man doesn't have free will!

 

[Revmitchell]

I can use scripture my friend.
This topic is carnal philosophical nonsense however.
You do not have one verse that speaks of free will.
When you find one verse that teaches it,go ahead and post it.
There was nothing bombastic here, just unfiltered truth that you do not like.

Still no scripture like usual.

 

[Iconoclast]

Sorry, instead of want I should have said what is according to our nature. Our wills are free to choose anything that aligns with our nature.

Yes exactly....consider Roman's 6:16-21...
In heaven in a glorified body, we will be free to live without sin.
A believer here is still able to sin,rom7.

We are not free to sin however. We are free to serve.
Gal5:13-26...we are free from the laws penalty, but now free to serve by love.

 

[MB]

This is absolutely false. The word Sovereign God is used by everyone of differing theological persuasions.I disagree with calvinism. Trust me I have had my share of debates with calvinists. But if we become so anti-calvinism that we are against anything and everything they say just because a calvinist said it then we lose any true perspective. They in fact do not get everything wrong.

Then show me wise poster just where the scriptures actually use the word Sovereign. Why not go judge smoeone else it's what you do best. Stop trying to act like your a pastor with the authority to judge you are nothing to me. I only have one judge and it isn't you.
MB

 

[Particular]

Free will is a term used describe the process by which God has determined that man should choose to accept his offer of free grace or reject it (John 1:12; Luke 14:26-33; Luke 9:23; Mark 4:5-17). The choice given by God to man who is sovereign in all things is not without outside influences (Mark 4:5-17). There are at least three influences involved. First the personal and sinful nature within man himself (Romans 7:18-19). Sin can be a powerful draw and man most often allows its influence to pull him that way. Second, the world and its godless agenda (2 Peter 1:4). Man looks at the world and sees pleasure that can be difficult to walk away from. Third, the gospel Romans 1:16). The truth of God delivered by the Holy Spirit has the power to overcome the other two. As powerful as the gospel is God has determined to allow man to choose between the those influences.

At the core of the debate on this issue is the false idea that man has no ability to choose God without first being regenerated. The truth is there is not a single verse that states this it is only inferred by reformed folks. Inferred is often the same thing as eisegesis. There is not a single verse that explicitly says you have to be regenerated first. The author of the gospel of John ended his gospel with the purpose of its writing that the readers may believe. Romans 10:17 said faith is acquired by hearing the gospel. The ability to hear and understand the gospel is not tied to being regenerated first. Romans 10 covers the process by which one is saved. It begins by the need to call out to God, to recognize the need for God, the process of one being sent with the gospel, then the sent delivering the gospel, then the one to whom the gospel is delivered hearing, then the one to whom the gospel was delivered believing. No where is regeneration mentioned in all of that process.

The gospel preacher is sent, the gospel is delivered, the gospel is heard, the gospel is either believed or rejected. That entire process is ordained by God. The choice to accept or reject is ordained by God. God is not inhibited by the sin in man and He is not forced to regenerate man first nor is God forced to add an extra measure of grace beyond the gospel to influence man that man may believe.

Rev, I understand your position, but doesn't your first statement nullify free will?
You state: "Free will is a term used to describe the process by which God has determined."

Like I said, I understand your argument that follows after the first sentence, but it seems to be nullified by your first statement. Please explain how you get out of God determining and men having free will when you specifically state that God has determined.

 

[Particular]

Then show me wise poster just where the scriptures actually use the word Sovereign. Why not go judge smoeone else it's what you do best. Stop trying to act like your a pastor with the authority to judge you are nothing to me. I only have one judge and it isn't you.
MB

According to the Bible Gateway there are 291 times when the Hebrew or Greek word for Lord means, and can be translated, Sovereign Lord.
So, how many of those 291 verses do you need posted for you? Since you only ask for one, I give you one.
Oh Sovereign Lord, you have only begun to show your greatness and the strength of your hand to me, your servant. Is there any God in heaven or on the earth who can perform such great and mighty deeds as you do?
~ Deuteronomy 3:24

 

[1689Dave]

Free will = two different gospels, two different Christianities, two different bibles. How So? Both read the same scriptures and either see them as law (free will) or as grace.

 

[loDebar]

This depends on how you define free will.

define free will, like David says and then we can present positions, otherwise we get to arguing two different things, agreeing and disagreeing because of terms rather than ideas

 

[loDebar]

Free will = two different gospels, two different Christianities, two different bibles. How So? Both read the same scriptures and either see them as law (free will) or as grace.

one includes the ability to act on free will, one side does not include action

Calvin included the action, I do not believe scripture does

 

[1689Dave]

one includes the ability to act on free will, one side does not include action

Calvin included the action, I do not believe scripture does

Calvin was Arminian in some cases. I believe the 5 points show this. Points 1-2 are consistent with point 3 (created by Dordt) which Calvin didn't hold to. Points 4-5 are consistent with universal atonement which Calvin embraced.

 

[Revmitchell]

Then show me wise poster just where the scriptures actually use the word Sovereign. Why not go judge smoeone else it's what you do best. Stop trying to act like your a pastor with the authority to judge you are nothing to me. I only have one judge and it isn't you.
MB

Do you believe in the Trinity?

 

[Revmitchell]

Rev, I understand your position, but doesn't your first statement nullify free will?
You state: "Free will is a term used to describe the process by which God has determined."

Like I said, I understand your argument that follows after the first sentence, but it seems to be nullified by your first statement. Please explain how you get out of God determining and men having free will when you specifically state that God has determined.

Why?

 

[Particular]

Why?

If, as you state:
"Free will is a term used to describe the process by which God has determined."
How can a thing that is determined by God be free-will?
It seems like an oxymoron to make the statement that "free will is the process by which God has determined."
If God has determined, doesn't that remove free will from being possible?

 

[InTheLight]

If, as you state:
"Free will is a term used to describe the process by which God has determined."
How can a thing that is determined by God be free-will?
It seems like an oxymoron to make the statement that "free will is the process by which God has determined."
If God has determined, doesn't that remove free will from being possible?

God decided that humans would have free will to believe the gospel or not believe the gospel.

It's not complicated.

 

[Particular]

God decided that humans would have free will to believe the gospel or not believe the gospel.

It's not complicated.

So the determination is not that a human being would be saved, but that a human being could override God's wishes by being given the gift of free will?
Sorry, this is more complicated than you think.
Also, are you speaking for Rev or does Rev see it differently than you see it?

 

[InTheLight]

So the determination is not that a human being would be saved, but that a human being could override God's wishes by being given the gift of free will?

No, because that is a false dilemma you just stated. No one is saying God's will is overridden by free will, except you, in your own mind. If God's will is to give humans free will to believe the gospel then how can it be overridden if man has free will?

Also, are you speaking for Rev or does Rev see it differently than you see it?

Based on previous posts I think this is what Rev believes, but I'm no mind reader so I don't know for sure.

 

[MB]

Do you believe in the Trinity?

Yes I do, How about you?
MB

 

[agedman]

There is a difference between freedom OF the will and free will.

Humankind’s free will is not free to choose what is not offered or incapable of attaining.

One may choose good even right, but has not ability to choose that which is righteous and righteousness.

It is the unmerited favor of God that grants His faith to humankind.

 

[37818]

@Martindr,
If you were to cite one Bible verse which gives you reason to believe in "free will," what would you cite?​

 

[InTheLight]

One may choose good even right, but has not ability to choose that which is righteous and righteousness.

And this is where the debate typically breaks down. The question is not, "do humans have the ability to be righteous?" The answer is a resounding, NO.

The real question is:
Does man have the ability to believe the gospel?