Free will

[gekko]

Adam again - he had to be saved to live - a choice would be of no help; or a choice makes grace and God superfluous.

could you explain this to me a little more? i dont know if i understand you here.

But God...just so righteously, desires the ungodly and reprobate not to be saved, but to be rewarded righteously, their eternal earnings: hell.

God would not be righteous if he desired for the ungodly and reprobate not to be saved.

and its not a reward to go to hell. LOL.

wow. what you said there... defames the God of Israel. puts him down. in a sense its breaking the third commandment "thou shalt not take the name of the Lord they God in vain"

God desires the ungodly to go to hell? where is that found in scripture?

rather - God desires the ungodly to be saved. doh!

 

[BobRyan]

Have you not read, "I, stand at the door and I, knock"? Like Jesus, who called the DEAD Lazarus from the grave. Could he choose to stay in there or to come forward? ...

sorry that is the zombie gospel of force and arbitrary selection instead of "God so Loved the WORLD that He gave".

So I will be sticking with "I STAND at the door AND KNOCK" It does NOT say "I knock down the door and barge into the room"

Pretty obvious really. Just leave the text as it reads.

 

[Tom Butler]

The term "free will" is a misnomer.

It is my free will to fly like a bird and swim like a fish. But the nature God gave me will not allow it.

I suspect Adam and Eve strongly willed to stay in the Garden of Eden after they fell. But God decreed that they must leave, must be ashamed of their nakedness, must toil for the rest of their lives, and Eve would suffer great pain in childbirth. Whose choice prevailed?

 

[Briguy]

Good point TB. Like my last post, your point will probably not be addressed because it is too good :smilewinkgrin: I won't comment further unless someone refutes what I said on page 3, otherwise I am arguing in a debate that I already won :laugh:

In Christ,
Brian

 

[J.D.]

I just got through reading Bondage of the Will by Luther. I'm convinced that "free-will" is a form of self-righteousness. Man's determination to hold on to his own good works.

There is not a single scripture that says that man can be saved by his own will (however, men are saved willingly due to the change in nature that is worked by God in the new birth), but rather, the scriptural evidence is overwhelming that only God has free will and grace, and His will determines all things:

"by His own will begat he us"
"who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will"
"who were born...not of the will of man, but of God"
"so it is not to him that willeth..."

Do you free willers need the references? There is not a freewiller alive or dead that can fully explain John 1:13, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:1, James 1:18.

And I've yet to see a free willer explain Deuteronomy 29:4, Isaiah 46:10, and a multitude of God's Word that clearly shows that all things are determined by the will of God, not the will of man. The best they can do is "I don't know what it means, but I know what it DOESN'T mean, thereby denying the calvinistic understanding of the word through their own determination to hold on to their self-righteousness, and openly admitting their own ignorance of the word.

Free willers are rabidly, irrationally opposed to God's imposition of His own authority in declaring man's inability to approach unto God without God's causation.

"Blessed is the man whom the Lord choosest, and causest him to approach unto thee"

Can a free willer even find that scripture? And if they find it, how long does it take him to deny it's truth?

Hint: Psalm 65:4

 

[webdog]

The term "free will" is a misnomer.

It is my free will to fly like a bird and swim like a fish. But the nature God gave me will not allow it.

I suspect Adam and Eve strongly willed to stay in the Garden of Eden after they fell. But God decreed that they must leave, must be ashamed of their nakedness, must toil for the rest of their lives, and Eve would suffer great pain in childbirth. Whose choice prevailed?

So, the "will" is only physical? This is what I get from your post.

Would you say man has "fee will" to sin, and think evil thoughts after becoming saved...or is this "will" still only physical?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Briguy:
Biblical predestination is to be glorified, that is made like Jesus. The truely saved person is guarenteed to be glorified the way Christ is Glorified. Remember when Jesus rose from the dead he had a glorified body? we will be glorified in that way. We don't earn that it, it is not a process it is a foregone conclusion for the believer.

HP: No man earns salvation, but no man will be saved apart from the fulfilling of the conditions God has set froth in order to be saved. We are not saved for the sake of our repentance, faith and continued obedience, but neither will any man be saved apart from fulfilling those conditions. I have posted the prisoner illustration to illustrate this point several times on other threads, so I will not repost it now.

You say that the process of salvation is a foregone conclusion, but to whom is it a foregone conclusion, and does that necessitate it coming to pass? I say only God sees it as a forgone conclusion, and no man has the ability to see it from God’s absolute perspective, for if we could faith would be impossible. Your position must assume that one can have absolute knowledge of ones final standing before the Lord, while Scripture clearly tells us otherwise, in that our knowledge is hemmed in by faith. In this present world we are to make our calling and election sure, and to examine ourselves to see if in fact we are of the faith. Our works, i.e., the intents of the heart, serve as evidence that indeed we are of the faith. If a man says he has faith, but his works prove otherwise, that man is deceived.

Briguy: It ties into election in that the "elect" as the Bible calls the believers, not me, are predistined to be glorified. I believe Jim said on page one that free will opreates within God's sovernity. What ever level of free will there is it is within God's rule. We know that God directs our steps yet He lets us decide whether we follow His direction or not. That would be free will in that sense.

HP: You speak out of both sides of your mouth here. On the one hand you say it is a foregone conclusion and now you say that we have the ability to refuse to follow God’s rule. You cannot have it both ways. Either it is a foregone conclusion or not, and if it is are you suggesting that you could refuse to act in a way God has determined for you to act?? Your free will is no free will at all. It is mere lip service to something your intellect tells you we have but your theology denies.

Briguy: In terms of salvation, free will operates in a way we can't understand. God already knows who His elect are. It is His call based on the criteria that He set. When you know everything to begin with you know who would come to you.

HP: You are again reasoning from God’s perspective of Omniscience. It is not tha you are unable to understand free will, it is that you try to run it through sieve of Omnipotence that you are not, yea cannot understand. This one point needs to be understood clearly. It is Gods’ Omniscience, not free will, that is your problem. You need to reason from the perspective God has granted to us, not that which he withholds from us. True fortitude of knowledge consists in not allowing this we cannot understand to confuse the things we of certainty know. I know that I am the cause of my intents as sure as I am sure that I exist.

Briguy: He knows His elect and he makes the election sure. God does not judge by works, He judges by faith and he then declares the person righteous. He decides though there is a distinction of faith and belief in each believer.

HP: There is ample testimony in Scripture that indeed God does in fact judge us according to our works. “Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” God determines our faith by our works for faith without works is dead being alone. Just the same, we are not ‘saved by our works,’ for nothing but the shed blood of Christ and His mercy and grace are the grounds of our salvation, but just the same we will not be saved apart from our works. Our works are the conditions God has mandated for us to do in order to be saved.

Briguy: Clear as mud right?

HP: Sure, I would give you that.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: If man were god then man would have to deny free will to mankind SO THAT he could accurately PREDICT what all souls will do in the future.

"IF" man WERE god that is!!

HP: You are absolutely right on. Our foreknowledge is limited to things of necessity, i.e. we can only foreknow things that of necessity MUST come to pass, where as God can know matters of perfect choice. What is amazing to me is those that cry so loud about God’s way being higher than our ways, are the first to limit God’s foreknowledge to like kind as we possess, assuming that if God foreknows who will be saved or how we will act under certain situations, it is a matter of necessity that it come to pass and not a matter of free will or choice. Strange indeed.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: O yes, Arminian theology does imply it! Almost no sermon without the 'coercing' refrain: Make your choice for Christ tonight, or it may be too late forever."

HP: How does that imply that if they were to live longer that they would be saved?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: Man, this is a strong statement:
desires the ungodly and reprobate not to be saved, but to be rewarded righteously, their eternal earnings: hell.

HP: And as you point out so clearly, such a notion is foreign to the Word of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tom Butler: The term "free will" is a misnomer.

It is my free will to fly like a bird and swim like a fish. But the nature God gave me will not allow it.

I suspect Adam and Eve strongly willed to stay in the Garden of Eden after they fell. But God decreed that they must leave, must be ashamed of their nakedness, must toil for the rest of their lives, and Eve would suffer great pain in childbirth. Whose choice prevailed?

HP: No man’s will is free to form an intent in a direction ones sees as a natural possibility. That does not prove anything that would detract from a proper understanding of a free will.

Concerning Adam and Eve, I suspect your ideas are in error. One look at the angel guarding the gate would put a damper in any ones will to enter in unless they were suicidal. As for their nakedness, they were ashamed BEFORE God spoke to them. They knew intuitively that they were in a condition that could not stand before the Almighty God. It was Adam’s and Eve’s choice that prevailed in choosing to disobey God’s command not to eat of the tree. The consequences of that free will act, God controlled.

Free will is no misnomer.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JD: Do you free willers need the references? There is not a freewiller alive or dead that can fully explain John 1:13, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:1, James 1:18.

HP: Show us how you do JD.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JD: Do you free willers need the references? There is not a freewiller alive or dead that can fully explain John 1:13, Eph 1:11, Romans 9:1, James 1:18.

HP: Dead or alive, I will give it my best shot.

Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

This verse does not prove in any way that the free will granted to man by God is not active in the salvation process. It does state that our will is not the grounds of salvation nor the originator of the plan of salvation. God is the designer of the plan of salvation and His grace is the grounds of salvation.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

HP: We are indeed predestined in God has predetermined that we would saved. His predestination or predetermination does not necessitate the outcome, but rather simply shows that God foreknows those that will fulfill the conditions He has set forth for man to be saved. It is His will that man, granted a free will by Him, should exercise that free will in a response that He accepts as being obedient to His conditions. God is the designer and executor of the plan of salvation. This in no way sets aside the fact that God has placed conditions for man to fulfill in order to make effective His plan in their lives.

(I believe you mean this verse, not 9:1 as you listed it. Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

HP: The word children in this verse refers to ‘nations’ in that God chose certain nations to be granted certain privileges and benefits that others would not have, and this benefit had nothing directly to do with them doing anything good or evil, due to the fact that He chose to confer these blessings upon them before their existence.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

HP: Nothing any man could possibly have done in any way could have forced God’s hand to confer upon sinful man a Savior. It was of his own will that salvation was designed and implemented. That in no way negates the part man’s will does play in salvation. It simply states that the plan was his to design and His to implement of His own will and not by force, coercion, or by any other.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting Heavenly Pilgrim, "HP: The word children in this verse refers to ‘nations’ in that God chose certain nations to be granted certain privileges and benefits that others would not have, and this benefit had nothing directly to do with them doing anything good or evil, due to the fact that He chose to confer these blessings upon them before their existence."

Apply this verse to yourself - does it apply or not? It applied to me and still applies to me after a life-time of being God's child.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: Apply this verse to yourself - does it apply or not? It applied to me and still applies to me after a life-time of being God's child.

HP: This verse does not speak directly to any individual as it is written, so it would be in error to apply it to an individual when in fact it is not referring to one.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"... the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth ..."

The Righteousness of God ... read it in the place of "the purpose of God according to election": "The Righteousness of God -- not of works, but of him that calleth ..."

Anything wrong with it? Of course not! And so it is irreconcilible with 'free will'!

In its simplest form it amounts to this, that God forgives those He will to forgive their sins in and through Jesus Christ, of His own volition and to His own honour solely.

The Reformers and Puritans had a name for 'free will' and its 'theology' -they called the spade a spade: Idolatry!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It's no spelling mistake where I wrote, He will to forgive - I mean it as a conditional clause : As GOD, may, or might decide to ...
What consolation does one have except God's willing and desire, for in himself he finds none.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: The Reformers and Puritans had a name for 'free will' and its 'theology' -they called the spade a spade: Idolatry!

HP: Well, they sure missed it there, and besides, if that is what they called truth that contradicted their false notions, they were not only in error, but they also were guilty of possessing a very sharp tongue.

 

[BobRyan]

What is amazing to me is those that cry so loud about God’s way being higher than our ways, are the first to limit God’s foreknowledge to like kind as we possess, assuming that if God foreknows who will be saved or how we will act under certain situations, it is a matter of necessity that it come to pass and not a matter of free will or choice. Strange indeed.

Excellent point!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HP: This verse does not speak directly to any individual as it is written, so it would be in error to apply it to an individual when in fact it is not referring to one.

The whole Scriptures is written for whose instruction and good?

Everyone reading your wisdom here will know what to decide for himself.