Fundamental View of Faith

[Van]

Would anyone have objective evidence to refute the notion that the ratio of anti-Calvinists is much higher among in IFB churches than SBC churches? For example and I am making these numbers up for illustration, say in the SBC churches the ratio is 50/50, but in IFB churches the ratio is 80/20 with anti-Calvinists in the majority.

Can anyone put some meat on those hypothesis bones?

 

[percho]

Ephesians 2:1 clearly states, "And you [the Ephesian believers] hath he quickened [made alive spiritually] who were dead in trespasses and sins." (emphasis mine)

To me, that verse is telling me that it was God who took the initiative in our salvation, not us. It's impossible for a spiritually dead person to muster up any kind of faith in Christ's finished work of salvation on his own unless God the Holy Spirit first "quickens" him.

Actually Eph. 2:1 doesn't clearly state that. Someone added some words to make it clearly say that.


Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins, YLT

 

[Van]

The premise that we cannot discuss the IFB doctrine of faith because some adhere to Calvinism and some adhere to anti-Calvinist views such as Christ died for all men is without merit. The issue is not whether Calvinism is false, which its defenders would deny, but what are the views of IFB churches.

Does anyone have the integrity to answer question number 2 from an IFB perspective?

2. What criteria does God use, according to scripture, to choose to credit a person's faith in Christ as righteousness?

 

[percho]

Hi Ktn4eg, your verse does not say when we were quickened, before God credited our faith as righteousness or after when God put us spiritually in Christ. Therefore the verse does not in the slightest support your assertion.

Take a close look at Matthew 23:13. Here we have folks "entering heaven" and therefore must have mustered up some kind of faith. Yet they were turned aside, so they were not under the influence of Irresistible grace. Therefore scripture teaches it is possible for a spiritually dead person to seek God and trust in Christ.

Does your "calvinist" view reflect the view of an IFB church. I know of lots of SBC Calvinist churches. The topic is the faith alone doctrine of IFB churches claiming to be fundamentalist.

His verse doesn't say anything about quickened.
Does quickened mean we have been saved or does it mean we are set apart in Christ for salvation that was wrought for us by the grace of resurrection from the dead of Christ through the faith of Christ See verses 5,6 Eph 2

I believe, we receive the Holy Spirit because of the; By grace through the faith.

This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

That is my,"fundamentalist," thought.

However I may be a, "fundamentalist," of one.

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, "quicken" means "made alive" and thus we are made alive "together with Christ." Therefore when we are separated from Christ we are dead spiritually, and when God puts us spiritually "in Christ" we are made alive, regenerated, born again.

 

[Van]

4. Substitutionary Atonement: We believe Christ died in the place of sinners (1 Peter 3:18) in order to pay the debt owed by sinful man to a righteous God (1 John 2:2).

This view is anti-Calvinist because the referenced verses say Christ died for all and for the whole world. The question is: Is this the majority view of IFB churches?

 

[12strings]

I see the Artful Dodgers are posting again. We are discussing the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist doctrine of faith. All these evasions are calculated to hide the doctrine.

But what do IFB fundamentalists think faith looks like?

1. Are fallen natural people able to seek God and trust in Christ, or must they be "given" faith via irresistible grace?

2. What criteria does God use, according to scripture, to choose to credit a person's faith in Christ as righteousness?

3. Would the faith be lip service faith, i.e. dead faith, or demonic faith where the believer is emotionally attached to their beliefs, or dynamic faith, i.e. a faith from which flows works?​

What do IFB fundamentalists think faith looks like?

Q1 - It depends if they are calvinists or not.

Q2 - If the faith is in Christ, and not in their own good works. Now where the faith comes from ultimately...it depends if they are Cal or not.

Q3 - No...see the book of James...True faith will produce fruit. (both cals and non-cals would agree here.

 

[12strings]

Would anyone have objective evidence to refute the notion that the ratio of anti-Calvinists is much higher among in IFB churches than SBC churches? For example and I am making these numbers up for illustration, say in the SBC churches the ratio is 50/50, but in IFB churches the ratio is 80/20 with anti-Calvinists in the majority.

Can anyone put some meat on those hypothesis bones?

I'll have to assume you are close on your 80/20 ration for IFB, though I'm not sure if there have been any surveys:

BUT...I believe you are a bit off on the SBC 50/50. A 2007 survey showed that recent grads of SBC seminaries were about 30% Cal. But in the SBC as a whole (in 2006) it was closer to 10%. I believe this was pastors, not church members surveyed. SEE SURVEY HERE:

http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=26914

From the studies:

Among pastors of Southern Baptist churches who are recent SBC seminary graduates, 29 percent indicated they are Calvinists. Stetzer said 27 percent of 1,234 recent seminary graduate respondents serving in SBC church leadership positions "somewhat agree" or "strongly agree" that they are five-point Calvinists, while 67 percent affirmed that God's "grace is irresistible" and 58 percent said they believe "people do not choose to become Christians, God chooses and calls people who respond to him."

NAMB's research complements the Calvinism study that LifeWay Research conducted in 2006, Stetzer noted. The LifeWay study surveyed a cross-section of 413 randomly selected SBC pastors. That study placed the number of pastors who affirm the five points of Calvinism in the SBC at around 10 percent.

 

[Mexdeaf]

This thread reminds me of the old joke about the church that was voting on a chandelier for the lobby.

A crusty old church member stood up and said, "First of all, no one here can pronounce the word right, second I don't think anybody could play it, if we got one. And what we really need is more light in this place."

 

[Van]

Thanks 12 strings for addressing the topic, how refreshing!

Putting your two posts together, you seem to be saying

1. The Majority of IFB churches probably agree that the fallen are able to seek God and trust in Christ.

2. The Majority of IFB churches would probably think God would credit a person's faith in Christ as righteousness if it was in Christ alone for salvation and not based in part on works. You did not provide scripture for this, but I would cite James 2:5 where God chooses those rich in faith, keeping His promise to those who love God. In the example of Abraham, we see a person who was a doer, i.e. a person with dynamic faith.

3. Yes, we agree on #3!

 

[Don]

Thanks 12 strings for addressing the topic, how refreshing!

Putting your two posts together, you seem to be saying

1. The Majority of IFB churches probably agree that the fallen are able to seek God and trust in Christ.

2. The Majority of IFB churches would probably think God would credit a person's faith in Christ as righteousness if it was in Christ alone for salvation and not based in part on works. You did not provide scripture for this, but I would cite James 2:5 where God chooses those rich in faith, keeping His promise to those who love God. In the example of Abraham, we see a person who was a doer, i.e. a person with dynamic faith.

3. Yes, we agree on #3!

let me make sure I understand this: Based on one IFB church's statement, your made-up number of 80/20, and someone's opinion that 80/20 might be close (with his admission that it's an assumption, because there are no known surveys) - we now come to the conclusion that "the majority of IFB churches...." ?!?

Post the statements of 100 IFB churches, and let's see if 80 of them fall into the category. Until then, your statements are without merit.

Again, the fundamental--all puns intended--problem with your premise is that you're identifying IFB churches as a group similar to the SBC. IFB churches are independent; meaning, they may come from camps with similar beliefs, but they don't all agree, and they certainly don't ascribe to a baptist convention that holds all participating churches to a standard set of beliefs.

In other words, your whole premise, the foundation of your discussion, is based on an over-generalization error.

You can disagree with this all you want; and you can try to deflect it and say it's simply people trying to dodge the discussion. But I, for one, frankly refuse to shoehorn all IFBs into a mold simply because that would make things easier for you.

Like I said - show us 100 IFB church statements, and then you can actually provide documented facts regarding your statements.

 

[percho]

Hi Percho, "quicken" means "made alive" and thus we are made alive "together with Christ." Therefore when we are separated from Christ we are dead spiritually, and when God puts us spiritually "in Christ" we are made alive, regenerated, born again.

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.------That is the manner in which we are quickened with/in Christ, me thinks.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (shall appear)with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so (BY being resurrected from the dead) them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (IN glory)

 

[Van]

Hi Don, I am sorry you equate a working hypothesis with a conclusion. I asked for others to provide meat on the bones, and you observe I presented bones with very little meat. Really helpful and very insightful.

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, you seem to be addressing being made alive physically at the second coming and I am addressing being made alive spiritually when we are spiritually put "in Christ." See Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 2:13. Note in some sense (spiritually I believe) we have been "made alive" a past event of those saved and forgiven!

 

[freeatlast]

Try answering Van's questions first; then we can discuss side issues.

What question? I don't see where he asked me a question.

 

[Mexdeaf]

let me make sure I understand this: Based on one IFB church's statement, your made-up number of 80/20, and someone's opinion that 80/20 might be close (with his admission that it's an assumption, because there are no known surveys) - we now come to the conclusion that "the majority of IFB churches...." ?!?

Post the statements of 100 IFB churches, and let's see if 80 of them fall into the category. Until then, your statements are without merit.

Again, the fundamental--all puns intended--problem with your premise is that you're identifying IFB churches as a group similar to the SBC. IFB churches are independent; meaning, they may come from camps with similar beliefs, but they don't all agree, and they certainly don't ascribe to a baptist convention that holds all participating churches to a standard set of beliefs.

In other words, your whole premise, the foundation of your discussion, is based on an over-generalization error.

You can disagree with this all you want; and you can try to deflect it and say it's simply people trying to dodge the discussion. But I, for one, frankly refuse to shoehorn all IFBs into a mold simply because that would make things easier for you.

Like I said - show us 100 IFB church statements, and then you can actually provide documented facts regarding your statements.

Psst- (I know you know this but...) all SBC churches are independent also. There's really no difference except that one cooperates with the SBC in evangelism and missions and the other cooperates with another group (BBF, ABWE, BJU, UBF, etc.) in evangelism and missions.

 

[Don]

Psst- (I know you know this but...) all SBC churches are independent also. There's really no difference except that one cooperates with the SBC in evangelism and missions and the other cooperates with another group (BBF, ABWE, BJU, UBF, etc.) in evangelism and missions.

(yeah, I know; but I was making an over-generalization error that Van didn't catch (namely, that all SBC churches have to sign an agreement to a statement of faith in order to be called SBC). What do you think: Is my point made?)

 

[Don]

What question? I don't see where he asked me a question.

Um...opening post?

 

[Mexdeaf]

(yeah, I know; but I was making an over-generalization error that Van didn't catch (namely, that all SBC churches have to sign an agreement to a statement of faith in order to be called SBC). What do you think: Is my point made?)

If there is a point in this discussion that is it.

 

[Don]

Hi Don, I am sorry you equate a working hypothesis with a conclusion. I asked for others to provide meat on the bones, and you observe I presented bones with very little meat. Really helpful and very insightful.

Weren't you the one that used 12Strings post to make a statement that said "the majority of IFB churches"?

Frankly, honesty says "one poster does not a majority make." No one trying to make a valid argument would ever take one respondent and say "majority" without ensuring qualification of the term--which the respondent did, by pointing out that he was unaware of any surveys on the subject, and thus identifying his statement as opinion only. Thus, the quantification of "80/20" and the use of "majority" are immediately invalid.

All I pointed out was that your wording was trying to add meat that isn't there. All I've ever pointed out is that your posts are, for the most part, prone to logic errors (specifically, over-generalization). Sorry if that hurts your feelings, but I call them as I see them. It's easy to fix, though; find the statements of 100 IFB churches, post them out somewhere for examination, and show that the majority agrees on any/all/certain points. Then neither I nor anyone else can give you grief.

Of course, until you do that, I will continue to point out that you make logic errors, and therefore are necessarily relegating your posts to opinion only, rather than factual assessments worthy of further contribution.