Fundamentalist

[Ed Edwards]

//1 Corinthians 15:52 // (translation unknown)
//In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.

[Last Trump] !!!!//

The Last Trump of what?

In my pretribulation rapture2 pre-millinnial Second Coming
viewpoint it is the Last Trump of the Church Age
(AKA = also known as, the Time of the Gentiles,
Age of Grace, Age of the Gentiles, Gentile Age, etc)
which is blown for the Rapture2.

In fact, this scripture defines what I
mean by my terms:

Rapture1 - when 1 Cor 15:52 happens to a living saint

Resurrection1 - when 1 Cor 15:52 happens to a dead saint

Rapture2 - the 'Pretribulation resurrection1
followed immediately by a rapture1' Event

Resurrection1 - the 'Post-tribulation resurrection1
followed immediately by a rapture1' Event

 

[Ed Edwards]

But, of course, the Eschatological variances have
little to do with FUNDAMENTLISM -
for the fundamental about Eschatological
is this (bolded below):

The fundamentals of traditional fundamentalism
(this are the ones I believe):

1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent

We obviously both believe in this fundamental.

Where we do not agree is that the
1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
is correct. I believe it and further believe that
it speaks of the TNIV = Today's New International Version (2006)
is scripture that is inspired and infallible

I believe the inspiration and infallibility of scripture in
the HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/.

I believe the inspiration and infallibility of scripture in
the nKJV = New King James Version.

Further, I believe that it is better to use multiple
scriputures in languages that I can read -- it better
helps the Holy Spirit to teach us the depths of God's
truths: His inspiration and infallibility of ALL the
scripture.

Eph 4:4-6 (KJV1611 Edition):
There is one body,
and one spirit, euen as yee are called
in one hope of your calling.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one Faith, one Baptisme,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is aboue all,
& through all, & in you all.

I am called to help God's other ministers in
this world in the BB = Baptist Board.
I have the ONE hope of my calling as others
have of their calling.
We have one body.
We have one Spirit
We have one Lord
We have one Faith
We have one Baptisme
(not baby sprinkling like the KJVs translators)
We have One God
We have one Father

Strange, did Paul miss out on talking about
one and only one English Translation
HE sure did a good job otherwise of listing all the
'one's.

 

[BobRyan]

The rapture is post tribulation according to the words of Jesus.

That is correct according to Matt 24 "AFTER the tribulation of those days.. he will gather his elect"

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You have summarized the case JUST as Matt 24 states it.

Well done!

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Yep! That is the post-trib rapture.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[Last Trump] !!!!

These are excellent summary statements from scripture telling us about the post-trib event Christ speaks of in Matt 24.


KJV discussion I will leave for another thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[antiaging]

Again, I humbly ask, petition, beseech, and pray
you will add the the Translation, Version & Edition.
I am required by God to check out all
scriputre passages.
With 2½-dozen Paper versions and 4-dozen Cyber
versions available to check, this causes me to
sadly waste God's time in my life.

Yes, I know that will mean that you have to edit your
scripture. Your scriputre is right then when you quote it.

Your scripture sounds like the reading of
KJ21 = The 21st Century King James Version
(Deuel Enterprises, 1994)
but some punctuation varies and some
Capitalization varies (Son of Man v. Son of man).

Here is my writing that shows that What Jesus said
here is actually showing the pretribulation rapture2 =
a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1, is
to be in our future.

Here is an earlier writing I wrote which one could
find around the BB several places -- if one
really cared.
--------------------------------
Pretribulation view of Matthew 24:

Here is a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
Futurist understanding of Matthew 24.

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues
NOT that the end is near..

-------------------------------------

Which is a simple and more complete reading
of what Jesus had to say.

As always, feel free to tell me the first verse
after Matthew 24:29 that isn't covered by
the 'after the Tribulation of those days'.
I believe the answer is NOT Matt 24:31
by the above reasons.

Also feel free to explain how Jesus answered these
three questions of the Disciples according to
your post-tribulation a-mill (the Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom of Christ is to be discrned as a Spiritual
truth only) viewpoint.

The question was not when the temple would be destroyed. It was when will there be no stone left upon another of those buildings.

Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

I saw on TV about 40ft. down, an excavation close to the Dome of the rock mosque. There were still wall stones of the temple that Herod built one on top the other stacked up down there. What Jesus was referring to has not happened yet. The temple was destroyed, but original temple stones are still stacked, one upon another, 40ft below the street.

He gave the signs of the end of the age, they are the same signs of His coming.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

They never happened yet.

[I use the standard authorized KJV version, that has been around for many years; identical to what Alexander Scourby reads on his tapes, at scourby.com. Audio-bible.com same version. [The authorized 1611 version, later edition, with upgraded English and spelling.]--Best translation of the real original texts that there is. [The translators were among the best.]

Matt. 24:31 is the rapture and it happens after the great tribulation period spoken of in Matt. 24:21

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Called the great tribulation by Jesus, it starts when the antichrist places the abomination that makes desolate spoken of in Daniel, 3.5 years before the end.
It is the last 3.5 years; last half of the 70th week in Dan. 9.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

That event is mentioned in Dan 9, Dan 11 and Dan 12.

Don't worry about it. You probably won't be around at that time.
Ezekiel 38 and 39 must happen before antichrist comes and the final 7 years. The Ezek. prophecy is not ready to happen yet.

 

[Ed Edwards]

//Ezekiel 38 and 39 must happen before antichrist
comes and the final 7 years. The Ezek.
prophecy is not ready to happen yet.//

Ezekiel 39 happens after the literal Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom that a-mills don't beleive in.
Ezekiel 38 & 39 are two seperate prophecies
of invations of Yisrael at least 1,000 years apart.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Called the great tribulation by Jesus, it starts when the antichrist places the abomination that makes desolate spoken of in Daniel, 3.5 years before the end.
It is the last 3.5 years; last half of the 70th week in Dan. 9.

Amen, Brother antiaging - Preach it!

//Matt. 24:31 is the rapture and it happens after the great tribulation period spoken of in Matt. 24:21//

Yes, you already said that and we believe that you
believe that. It is wrong, but we allow that liberty
in Christ to you - you can be wrong about that
as often as you wish and under whatever circumstances
you wish. Meanwhile, you fail to support anything counter
to what I'm saying

//Matthew 24:29 (KJV1769 Ediion):
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

//They never happened yet.//

I agree it has not happened yet.
It will happen at least 2 times 3½-year periods from now
(7 years for the mathematicaly dis-inclined).

Only the pretribulation rapture2 can be signless --
happening in a time unknown to us but in our
future.

//He gave the signs of the end of the age,
they are the same signs of His coming.//

Then you misunderstand the signs of Matthew 24:4-14.
These are signs of the continuing Church Age we are in.
This is a common mistake of those you figure the
rapture2 has to be a post-tribulation ONLY event.
There will be a rapture1 before the Tribulation period
and one after (and as many more as God wants to have,
He doesn't limit himself to one and only one resurrection.
In fact, here is a nice resurrection story in the next post.

--------------------------------
Matthew 24:14 (HCSB = Christian Standard
Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.

Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

AD0061 - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. AD0140 - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

AD0197 - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. AD0205 - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. AD0310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
"The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

AD378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of Christ".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

This prophecy concerns the Full Church Age!
The word of Jesus has been spreading
to the rest of world and will continue to
do so as long as the Lord tarries.
---------------------------------------------------------------

This can only be a prophecy that is being continously as
long as the Church Age continues.
The Church age lasts from the Day of Pentecost to
the pretribulation rapture2.
Peter calls it 'the last days' iln Acts 2:17.

 

[Ed Edwards]

\o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections:

(last revised 30 Nov 2007,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1992)
Found in the Holy Bible Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Rapture1: like a Resurrection1 only of a living person.
Resurrection1: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation (Period): AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

Romans 10:9 (TNIV2006 = Today's New
International Version):

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.

405 years earlier:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him
vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


/b]2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints[/b]
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 6 Oct 2007;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that at least resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[Ed Edwards]

A fundamentalist believes:
The inerrancy, infallibility and literal truth of the bible.
...

How can a literalist be a-mill?
A-mill believes in a Spiritual ONLY meaning
for the Millennial Messanic Kingdom.
But that isn't literal.
Literal would be a Physical and a Spiritual
Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

IMHO a-mills can't be fundamentalists.

 

[antiaging]

//Ezekiel 38 and 39 must happen before antichrist
comes and the final 7 years. The Ezek.
prophecy is not ready to happen yet.//

Ezekiel 39 happens after the literal Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom that a-mills don't beleive in.
Ezekiel 38 & 39 are two seperate prophecies
of invations of Yisrael at least 1,000 years apart.



Amen, Brother antiaging - Preach it!

//Matt. 24:31 is the rapture and it happens after the great tribulation period spoken of in Matt. 24:21//

Yes, you already said that and we believe that you
believe that. It is wrong, but we allow that liberty
in Christ to you - you can be wrong about that
as often as you wish and under whatever circumstances
you wish. Meanwhile, you fail to support anything counter
to what I'm saying

//Matthew 24:29 (KJV1769 Ediion):
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

//They never happened yet.//

I agree it has not happened yet.
It will happen at least 2 times 3½-year periods from now
(7 years for the mathematicaly dis-inclined).

Only the pretribulation rapture2 can be signless --
happening in a time unknown to us but in our
future.

//He gave the signs of the end of the age,
they are the same signs of His coming.//

Then you misunderstand the signs of Matthew 24:4-14.
These are signs of the continuing Church Age we are in.
This is a common mistake of those you figure the
rapture2 has to be a post-tribulation ONLY event.
There will be a rapture1 before the Tribulation period
and one after (and as many more as God wants to have,
He doesn't limit himself to one and only one resurrection.
In fact, here is a nice resurrection story in the next post.

--------------------------------
Matthew 24:14 (HCSB = Christian Standard
Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.

Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

AD0061 - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. AD0140 - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

AD0197 - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. AD0205 - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. AD0310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
"The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

AD378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of Christ".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

This prophecy concerns the Full Church Age!
The word of Jesus has been spreading
to the rest of world and will continue to
do so as long as the Lord tarries.
---------------------------------------------------------------

This can only be a prophecy that is being continously as
long as the Church Age continues.
The Church age lasts from the Day of Pentecost to
the pretribulation rapture2.
Peter calls it 'the last days' iln Acts 2:17.

Ezekiel 38:8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Latter years is the time leading up to the return of Jesus. It is not after the millenial reign.
Summary of why the Ezekiel 38 and 39 prophecy must happen before the tribulation period:

Ezekiel 39:9. The Jews are going to be burning the weapons for 7 years. That prevents the Ezekiel prophecy from happening during the 7 year tribulation period. At 3.5 years into the tribulation period antichrist is going to conquier Israel and rule from Jerusalem. He will persecute the Jews and the Jews will flee out of the land. If they flee out of the land, then they cannot burn weapons for 7 years.
The Ezekiel prophecy is supposed to happen after Israel is brought back from other nations (that happened after world war2) and during the latter years, Ezekiel 38:8, when Israel is dwelling safely in the land. That means the prophecy will happen before the antichrist and the 7 year tribulation begins.
The Ezekiel prophecy is not armageddon. Armageddon happens when the anticrhist is ruling and the Jews are not dwelling safely but are persecuted and they are not in the land; they fled out of it.
It don't happen after the millenial reign either as some say. That is not latter years and the saints did not just come from other countries; they lived in a camp for a very long time, maybe a thousand years.
The Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 prophecy is the next prophecy to happen and it must happen and be over for at least 7 years before the endtime sequence can begin.
The reference to Gog and magog, from the context of the scriptures is just a reference to the lands that the deceived men will come from, when they surround the camp of the saints. Gog and magog are just names used to identify the lands involved. Scythia and Russian territories.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

The US knocking out the Sunnis in Iraq, is allowing the Shiites, which are controlled by Iran to take over. Biblical Persia is Iran and Iraq together, ruled from Iran. What Bush is doing in the middle east is helping to reestablish the old persian empire in preparation for the Ezek. 38/39 prophecy. Persia is one of the attackers in the prophecy.


There are only 3 raptures in the whole New Testament. The ascension of Jesus in the book of acts. The ascension of the two witnesses in Jerusalem near the end of the tribulation period, and the rapture or ascension of the raised dead saints and living saints to meet Jesus in the air at His ONE second coming. He is only coming back once; not twice.

My beliefs are based solely on the King James version bible, which I know extremely well. Listening to Alexander Scourby read it on tape players, many many times since 1979. I covered the Old Testament well over a hundred times and the New Testament well over 500 times, and those are conservative estimates. I listen to the bible like others listen to a radio; alot.
If any denomination contradicts what I see in the KJV then I don't follow that contradiction. They must be in error since the bible itself is the standard to judge truth by.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

The signs Jesus spoke of in Matt. 24 follow that verse, and that is a mid tribulation event.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

1260 days is 3.5 Jewish years.

Matt. 24:31 is the rapture and Jesus has it happening after the mid tribulation event spoken of in Daniel. The rapture is post tribulation. There is no pretrib rapture in the KJV bible as far as I can see.
The false prophets saying pre trib rapture, are copying off false prophets before them. I heard men say this pre trib rapture prophecy, but if I don't see it in the KJV, then I don't believe it. I see a post trib rapture in the KJV.

Ezekiel 13:3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!
Ezekiel 13:2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

Ezekiel 13:10 Because, even because they have seduced my people, saying, Peace; and there was no peace; and one built up a wall, and, lo, others daubed it with untempered morter:
Ezekiel 13:11 Say unto them which daub it with untempered morter, that it shall fall:...

One guy prophecies a falsehood out of his own heart, saying pre-trib rapture. Like building a wall. Other false prophets copy off of him, like daubing the wall with untempered mortar. The wall shall fall.
The pre-trib rapture idea will fall like a house of cards, as we get closer to the tribulation period and start to enter it.
But you won't be here to see it so don't worry about it.
The Ezekiel prophecy could be 25 years away, who knows.
After that Israel establishes a daily sacrifice and builds a new temple.
The tribulation period might not start for another 60 years, who knows, but God.
Isaac Newton the bible scholar and scientific genius said the end would come in 2060. But, since the bible says that God alone knows when, I don't trust what Newton said.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ezekiel 38:8 (KJV1769 Edition):
After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Latter years is the time leading up to the return of Jesus. It is not after the millenial reign.

I agree, for the prophecy of Ezekiel 38.
I believe (of my own, not my denomination)
that Ezekiel 39 is a seperate, unique prophecy
about the war & after the physical Millennial Messanic
Kingdom - also described in Revelation 20:7-10.

 

[Ed Edwards]

There are only 3 raptures in the whole New Testament. The ascension of Jesus in the book of acts. The ascension of the two witnesses in Jerusalem near the end of the tribulation period, and the rapture or ascension of the raised dead saints and living saints to meet Jesus in the air at His ONE second coming. He is only coming back once; not twice.

The event about the two witnesses is a
resurrection1 = Jesus giving a new body to a saint who is dead

not a
rapture1 = Jesus giving a new body to a saint who is alive

There are two rapture1s:

1. the PreTribulation Raputre2 (PTR) event:
a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1

2. the Post-Tribulation Resurrection2 event:
a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1

 

[Ed Edwards]

1Th 4:16-18 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For the Lord himselfe shall descende from heauen with a shoute, and with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then shall we which liue and remaine, be caught vp with them also in the clouds, to meete the Lord in the ayre: and so shall we euer be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort your selues one another with these wordes.

Where is my comfort that you are
supposed to get me which is COMMANDed
to you in 1 Thess 4:18?

What then is the Bible talking about
when it says these things (items of
interest bolded & in all caps)?

1 Thess 4:17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Then shall we which liue and remaine,
be CAUGHT VP with them also in the clouds,
to meete the Lord in the ayre:
and so shall we euer be with the Lord.

2 Thess 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ, and
by OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from
your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit,
nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs,
as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come, except there
come a DEPARTING FIRST, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne
of perdition,

Titus 2:13 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Looking for that BLESSED HOPE,
and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God,
and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

Mat 24:31 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And he shall send his Angels with
a great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT
from the foure windes, and from the one ende of the heauens vnto the other.

1Co 16:22 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
If any man loue not the Lord Iesus Christ,
let him be had in execration MARAN-ATHA.

1 Corinthians 16:22 (TNIV = Today's New
International Version):
If anyone does not love the Lord,
let that person be cursed! COME LORD!

Joh 14:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let not your heart be troubled: ye beleeue in God,
beleeue also in me.
2 In my Fathers house are many dwelling places:
if it were not so, I would haue tolde you:
I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go to prepare a place
for you, I wil come againe,
and RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE,
that where I am, there may ye be also.

Ed redefines 'rapture2' with some Scripture
terms:

rapture2 n. -
1. the pretribulation event where Jesus
performs a resurrection1 followed
closely by a rapture1
2a CAUGHT VP;
2b OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
-- and DEPARTING;
2c BLESSED HOPE;
2d GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT;
2e MARAN-ATHA;
2f COME LORD!;
2g RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE;
2h and HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU

Caveat: I reserve the right to add to this definition
as I find other supporting scriptures. These
were just the ones on the top of my mind
this morning.

Sorry, my HOPE is NOT even closely threatened
by sombody grabbing my word 'rapture'.

And I have fulfilled the COMMAND OF JESUS:

1 Peter 3:15-16 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
But sanctifie the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready alwayes to giue an answere
to euery man that asketh you a reason of the
HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU,
with meekenesse and reuerence,

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

But it sure is a lot easier to show in the OLD BIBLES
where 'departure' (or a form of it) is used in the 12
English Bibles preceeding the KJVs and 'falling away'
in the KJVs.

I always thought it interesting that the Pilgrims used the Geneva Bible instead of the KJV -- since that was the King's Bible (Anglican).

 

[antiaging]

I agree, for the prophecy of Ezekiel 38.
I believe (of my own, not my denomination)
that Ezekiel 39 is a seperate, unique prophecy
about the war & after the physical Millennial Messanic
Kingdom - also described in Revelation 20:7-10.

Last two verses of Ezek. 38 and first verse of Ezekiel 39:

Ezekiel 38:22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
Ezekiel 38:23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.


Ezekiel 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

That word "Therefore", in 39:1 connects the two chapters, showing that chapter 39 is just a continuation of Ezekiel 38. They are one and the same prophecy.

Chapter breaks in the bible were not in the original texts. They were arbitrarily added to make it easier to reference the scriptures.

From the context of the scriptures, the words Gog and Magog in Revelation are used to identify what lands the deceived men will come from when they surround the camp of the saints. It is not referring to the Ezekiel prophecy.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

[Armchair Scholar]

I am not a KJV onlyist, or a Ruckmanite that declares the KJV as new revelation.

But I do know there is a problem with those who followed false Bibles translated by Hort and Westcott and the NIV is so horribly translated it takes many parts out.

Jillian, Westcott and Hort did not "translate" any Bibles. They worked on a Greek text of the NT using some of the newly discovered, older manuscripts, such as the Codex Sinaiticus, which was a new discovery in their time. Please don't just believe everything you read about Westcott and Hort and the "new versions" but seek out the information for yourself. You'll find that most of what you have read and been told is not what you think it is.

Rippon's suggestion is a very good one.

 

[Gold Dragon]

A fundamentalist is a christian that believes in the fundamentals of the Christian faith as defined in the New Testament. [Based on the conservative protestant movement started in 1910, to oppose modernism.] Modernism was an attempt by liberals, to reconcile the teachings of Christianity with the findings of science, especially evolution.

A fundamentalist believes:
The inerrancy, infallibility and literal truth of the bible.

The virgin birth and complete deity of Jesus Christ.

The physical ressurection of Christ and all dead.

The atoning sacrifice for the sins of the World, by Jesus' death on the cross.

The second coming of Christ in bodilly form.

The way I look at it, the real believers are the fundamentalists.
If these are the fundamentals of the Christian faith, then this is what Christians are supposed to believe.

I am a fundamentalist in that I believe in the above fundamentals with an adjustment of the first one to say that the Bible is God's inspired, pure and trustworthy Word of truth to humans.

I am a liberal in that I support modernism, science, evolution, textual criticism and am willing to consider attempts to reconcile them with Christianity.

I am an evangelical in that I oppose the separatist tendency of fundamentalists that the neo-evangelicals were trying to distance themselves from.

So which am I? Does it really matter?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Golden Dragon:

Sounds to me like you are a Fundamentalist,
a Liberal, and an Evangelical. In my books that
makes one a moderate. But you get to keep your
own books, which authority I observe you
have in Christ according the Baptist Traditional
Doctrine (from the Bible, of course):
Soul Competency.

 

[BobRyan]

I am a fundamentalist in that I believe in the above fundamentals with an adjustment of the first one to say that the Bible is God's inspired, pure and trustworthy Word of truth to humans.

I am a liberal in that I support modernism, science, evolution, textual criticism and am willing to consider attempts to reconcile them with Christianity.

I am an evangelical in that I oppose the separatist tendency of fundamentalists that the neo-evangelicals were trying to distance themselves from.

So which am I? Does it really matter?

If you do not believe Genesis 1-8 you can not possibly call yourself a fundamentalist. If rejecting the very BASIS for the fall of mankind and the need of salvation is not "liberal" then WHAT IS??

If you do not have a real fall of mankind from sinless perfection in Eden -- into a sinful depraved state you have no need of salvation -- what would mankind be saved FROM? Or do you argue the following

"God created mankind as a brute unthinking tooth-and-claw-murdering beast doomed to hell -- then later decided to spare him from the created fate He had given mankind to start with".

Can you possibly argue that the "cave dwelling - monkey-brain bashing EDEN" from which mankind fell was BETTER than what we have today? Does ANYONE in that evolution-over-the-Bible camp think that living in caves is BETTER?

In the Gospels AND in the NT and in the HEART of the LAW of God we see the very DETAILS from Gen 1-8 that evolutionism believes to be UNtrue -- to be argued as FACT both in LAW and in Gospel. Only liberalism needs to "have it both ways". Fundamentalism by definition does not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[John of Japan]

I am a liberal in that I support modernism, science, evolution, textual criticism and am willing to consider attempts to reconcile them with Christianity.

Most evangelicals and fundamentalists accept textual criticism (lower criticism). It is higher criticism that we reject.

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible is in perfect harmony with actual science.

But evolutionism is completely opposed to both OT and NT basis for the origin of man, the Creator and the fall of man and hence - the basis for the Gospel. In Romans 1 Paul states that the "invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in what has been made" EVEN to pagans -- evolutionism flatly denies it.

There is Nothing "fundamentalist" about evolutionism's claim that you can not believe what you read in Gen 1-8.

in Christ,


Bob

 

[Gold Dragon]

If you do not believe Genesis 1-8 you can not possibly call yourself a fundamentalist. If rejecting the very BASIS for the fall of mankind and the need of salvation is not "liberal" then WHAT IS??

If you do not have a real fall of mankind from sinless perfection in Eden -- into a sinful depraved state you have no need of salvation -- what would mankind be saved FROM? Or do you argue the following

I do believe in Genesis 1-8 and in the fall of man and didn't say anything to suggest otherwise.

I probably do not believe your interpretation of those chapters but I believe it is a key part of God's inspired true and trustworthy scriptures that highlights his intimate involvement in creation.

... is not "liberal" then WHAT IS??

I already said I was liberal. I grew up in a culture where both fundamentalist and liberal (Christian) were bad titles. I now consider both to be good and bad things as well as any other Christian title I have like evangelical.