Gap Theory

[Amy.G]

Gappers teach there was sin and death in the world before Adam. The scriptures teach Adam introduced sin and death into the world.

I don't know about Gappers :tongue3:, but sin was in the world (cosmos) before Adam. Satan sinned against God and was fallen before Adam was made.

 

[preachinjesus]

Baloney. We know the last week of Daniel has not taken place.

The preterist camp would disagree with that.

You need to study your Bible and quit listening to men who say we should change the word of God.

Come on, let's keep this civil. Do you really believe that we all just sit around, mock the Bible, and not actually engage in studying the Scriptures?

 

[Grasshopper]

Big problem here. The scriptures teach that sin and death came into the world by Adam.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Gappers teach there was sin and death in the world before Adam. The scriptures teach Adam introduced sin and death into the world.

Here is a bigger problem, God said they would die in the day they ate:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Did they die that day? I wouldn't think a literal 24 hour day proponent would allow for "day" to be anything other than 24 hours.

Did they die physically? NO, they did die immediately though:


Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The death Paul was referring to was not physical.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

 

[Winman]

Come on, let's keep this civil. Do you really believe that we all just sit around, mock the Bible, and not actually engage in studying the Scriptures?

What scriptures? I see those who believe in the Gap presenting the opinions and writings of men. One of which said the Bible was mistranslated and that Gen 1:2 should say "became" instead of "was".

I am not saying you don't study the Bible, I hope you do. But some seem to prefer the opinions of men over the scriptures.

Hey, if you think I have misrepresented the scriptures, show me where I am wrong.

 

[Winman]

Here is a bigger problem, God said they would die in the day they ate:

Adam did die that very day. He died spiritually. He and Eve suddenly realized they were naked. They were both ashamed for the very first time, and they were also fearful of God for the first time.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

I see you agree with me here. How does this prove a Gap?

 

[Grasshopper]

Baloney. We know the last week of Daniel has not taken place.

Thank you for making my case. Istead of dealing with Daniel 9 you take your "Left Behind" presuppositions and read them back into Daniel. Evidently you cannot prove a gap from Daniel 9;

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Dan 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

Speaking of Antiochus, not our future.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Spurgeon can help you here:

14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations, and then shall the end come.
The world is to the Church like a scaffold to a building. When the Church is built, the scaffold will be taken down, the world must remain until the last elect one is saved: "Then shall the end come." Before Jerusalem was destroyed, "this gospel of the kingdom." was probably "preached in all the world" so far as it was then known, but there is to be a fuller proclamation of it "for a witness unto all nations" before the great consummation of all things: "then shall the end come," and the King shall sit upon the throne of his glory, and decide the eternal destiny of the whole human race.
15-18. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolution, spoken, of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: let him which is on the housetop not come down to take anything out of his house neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
This portion of our Savior's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolution", that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatrous emblems, "stand in the holy place", they knew that the time for them to escape had arrived, and they did "flee to the mountains."
The Christians in Jerusalem and the surrounding towns and villages, "in Judea", availed themselves of the first opportunity for eluding the Roman armies, and fled to the mountain city of Pella, in Perea, where they were preserved from the general destruction which overthrew the Jews.
There was no time to spare before the final investment of the guilty city, the man "on the house-top" could "not come down to take anything out of his house", and the man "in the field" could not "return back, to take his clothes." They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste the moment that they saw "Jerusalem compassed with armies ".(#Lu 21:20)
19-21. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that, your flight in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
It must have been a peculiarly trying time for the women who had to flee from their homes just when they needed quiet and rest. How thoughtful and tender was our pitiful Savior in thus sympathizing with suffering mothers in their hour of need! "Flight in the winter" or "on the sabbath day" would have been attended with special difficulties, so the disciples were exhorted to "pray" that some other time might be available.
The Lord knew exactly when they would be able to escape, yet he bade them pray that their flight might not be in the winter, nor on the Sabbath-day. the wise men of the present day would have said that prayer was useless under such conditions, not so the great Teacher and Example of his praying people, he taught that such a season was the very time for special supplication.
The reason for this injunction was thus stated by the Savior: "For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord's words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses, of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city, of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless, and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital, and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior's statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred.

http://www.historicism.com/sites/matt24/spurgeon.htm

We know there were 7 weeks, and 69 weeks until Messiah was cut off (Jesus crucified). The last remaining week is future.

Proof?

Jesus here confirms that the 7 year tribulation is the last week (when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel) in Matt 24:15.

See Spurgeon.

You need to study your Bible and quit listening to men who say we should change the word of God

.

Change as in inserting gaps into Daniel 9? Someone is listening to men(Jack VanImpe) but it is not I.

 

[Grasshopper]

Adam did die that very day. He died spiritually. He and Eve suddenly realized they were naked. They were both ashamed for the very first time, and they were also fearful of God for the first time.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

I see you agree with me here. How does this prove a Gap?

It proves no physical death. Thank you again.

 

[Amy.G]

It proves no physical death. Thank you again.

Except for the animal that God sacrificed to make "coverings" for Adam and Eve. I think it died physically.

 

[Winman]

It proves no physical death. Thank you again.

You are welcome. We are in agreement that Adam died spiritually that day. And we know he died physically 930 years later.

But you haven't explained how this proves there was a gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.

 

[Winman]

Except for the animal that God sacrificed to make "coverings" for Adam and Eve. I think it died physically.

Amy, you are one smart girl! :thumbs:

 

[Winman]

This portion of our Savior's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolution", that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatrous emblems, "stand in the holy place", they knew that the time for them to escape had arrived, and they did "flee to the mountains."

So Spurgeon thinks when Jesus spoke of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel in Matt 24:15 he was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.?

So, this destruction of Jerusalem was the great tribulation? Because in verse 21 Jesus said:

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Sorry, I think Spurgeon was off on this one.

 

[TennisNE1]

When did Lucifer fall from Heaven?

 

[Winman]

When did Lucifer fall from Heaven?

I have already posted this, but I will repeat. In my opinion, Lucifer has not been cast out of heaven yet. In Ezekiel 28, all of Satan's punishments are future.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


All of these punishments are future. And we know Satan has not been destroyed and never shalt be any more as shown in vs. 19.

And we see in Job that Satan still has access to heaven.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

I personally believe that Satan will not be cast down until the events of Revelations 12 take place.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

So when Jesus said he saw Satan fall from heaven as lightning, I personally believe he was speaking of these future events in Revelations 12.

Luke 18:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Jesus did not tell us when he saw this. But being God, Jesus could see the future as when he told his disciples all the events of the great tribulation.

 

[HankD]

Here is a bigger problem, God said they would die in the day they ate:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Did they die that day? I wouldn't think a literal 24 hour day proponent would allow for "day" to be anything other than 24 hours.

Did they die physically? NO, they did die immediately though:


Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

The death Paul was referring to was not physical.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

RE: Genesis 2:17
"thou shalt surely die" is idiomatic (IMO).

Literally is says "MOATH TAMUTH".

The root of both these words is MUTH (to die).

MOATH is the infinitive form (To die).
TA-MUTH is the imperfect form (incomplete action - you will die).

There are several ways which this can be translated and usually it is the emphatic "you shall surely die" but IMO this interpretation does not catch the proper Hebrew idomatic sense (in this sace). Even the English Tanakh does not translate this in what I believe is the proper manner.

So, this is just my opinion for what it's worth: another way to view this passage is (and I have seen older translations do it this way). In the day you eat thereof, dying you shall die.

In other words death will begin but not end on this specific day, MOATH TIMUTH is the definition of the sin and death process.

It begins with sin, and it will end with your death.

It does not necessarily mean that they will die physically on the specific day they ate the fruit but that the sin and death process would begin on that specific day.

James 1

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.​

HankD​

 

[Grasshopper]

You are welcome. We are in agreement that Adam died spiritually that day. And we know he died physically 930 years later.

But you haven't explained how this proves there was a gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2.

I never claimed it did. Go back and read the context of my statement and your statement about physical death.

So Spurgeon thinks when Jesus spoke of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel in Matt 24:15 he was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.?

So, this destruction of Jerusalem was the great tribulation? Because in verse 21 Jesus said:

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Sorry, I think Spurgeon was off on this one.

Read most commmentaries pre-Darby would they agree with Spurgeon. History teels us they were correct.



Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[Hawkins]

Brethren,

I'm teaching the Book of Genesis in an adult Bible institute at my church each Thursday night. One of the issues that naturally comes up is the "gap" theory. The theory that there is a "gap" or space of undermined time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I'm curious to know what you think and if you believe there is a gap? If so, what are your reasons. If not, what are your reasons? Keep in mind that I may use some or all of what you say in my class as I teach. I appreciate the input. God bless you.

Bro. Paul

Take a look at the Tabernacle (Most Holy Place),

In Hebrews:

Hebrews 9:3-4
Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant.

Hebrews 9:8
The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing.

Hebrews 9:11
When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation.


Now in Revelation:

Revelation 11:19
Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Revelation 15:8
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power, and no one could enter the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

The tabernacle's Most Holy Place is God's Temple and dwelling place. It is not of this creation and humans are not allowed to enter till after the seven trumpet.

Yet God's angels keep coming out of this place:

Revelation 14:15
Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Revelation 14:17
Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.


So most likely, the angels are not a part of this creation.

 

[HankD]

RE Exodus 20:11 Some "gap theory" proponents point out that the word here for "made" is ASAH (to make from pre-existant materials) and not BARA (call forth out of nothing) as in Genesis 1.

I read a book once by a scientist who made the claim that God first created a prototype heaven and earth as pools/fountains of sub atomic particles which were "TOHU V'BOHU" ("without form and void") then fashioned them into photons ("Let there be light") and then generated atoms and molecules out of these pools/fountains using them as building blooks. All very metaphysical.

Then after the geological aeon (a very long time), the 6 sidereal day creation began.

I forget the name of the Book and the author, I believe it was something like The Seven Fountains of Creation.

I took Modern Physics in college (Syracuse University) but it was still a really hard read.

The premise is that all matter is a form of light (photon based) and that it had to "brew" for a long long time before things shaped up for the 6 day creation of life.

This account however does not include the supposed "pre-adamic primal creation" of the Bullinger Gap Theory and also disallows the Darwinian theory of evolution of living beings. All life was brought forth in the 6 day "creation". The geological aeon only includes matter itself and happened between between Genesis 1:1-4 and Genesis 1:5.

FWIW it seemed unlikely to me. I'm going with ASAH as a functional synonym for BARA.

HankD

 

[Winman]

Hank

You would probably enjoy the theories of Barry Setterfield, an Austrailian physicist. He documented that the speed of light was slowing back in the late 80's. At first he was ridiculed, but since that time many secular scientists have confirmed his data. He is a Christian and believes in the six-day creation. He supports the plasma theory which really lines up with the Genesis account well.

http://www.setterfield.org/

Here is a very interesting article he wrote in layman's terms that demonstrates this plasma theory.

http://www.setterfield.org/ZPE-Plasma_model.html

 

[MB]

The time line which is laid out in the Bible doesn't seem to add up with the evidence for a much older earth. In a heated debate about it once a man brought up some interesting evidence. One was how long it takes for stalactites to grow. It doesn’t make any difference how much water flows through it the evaporation is always the same leaving the same amount of Gypsum behind. It takes 100 years to grow a ½” and they have discovered stalactites over 50 feet long. That means it takes 2400 hundred years for 1 foot to grow. A stalactite 50 feet long would take 120,000 years to grow.
God could have created the stalactite to look like it was that old which would deceive us in to believing it took that long or, it actually took that long to grow. Between Gen 1:1 and through 1:2 there is no sun rise or sunset. We don’t know how long God moved upon the face of the waters. Or for that matter why he moved up on the face of the waters. The first two verses describe a flooded earth. God destroyed the earth once we know for sure with a flood. Could there have been more than one flood?
While studying some Geology I learned about some things that aren’t generally known. Like how long it takes for a forest to lay down enough vegetation to create a bed of coal 100’s of feet deep. Or how long it takes to create a diamond naturally.
I do not believe in evolution because it’s impossible for nature to create an eye by accident. Just the eye and all it’s complications tells me that there had to be a mind of supreme intelligence behind it simply because design doesn’t just happen by accident.. Yet I have to admit that this gap theory might be true. I’m not saying that is I’m just acknowledging that it is possible.
I've always believed it took 6 days But I have never been sure of how long that first day was.
MB

 

[Winman]

I never claimed it did. Go back and read the context of my statement and your statement about physical death.

Read most commmentaries pre-Darby would they agree with Spurgeon. History teels us they were correct.



Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I am sure the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was a terrible event, but I do not think this is the "great tribulation" Jesus spoke of in Matt 24:21. One proof of this is that the apostle John also spoke of the great tribulation in Revelations which most (not all) scholars believe was written after 90 A.D. which was after Jerusalem's destruction. And John spoke of this tribulation as being yet future to come.

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

It is also very doubtful that Jesus was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. because his disciples had asked him when he would return and about the end of the world.

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

This is when Jesus answered them and gave the signs and spoke of a great tribulation such as was not from the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever will be.

Matt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So, I do not think the destruction of Jerusalem was the great tribulation. There were not the many plauges shown in the book of Revelations.

But the point is, Gappers say the whole world was utterly destroyed between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 and ALL life destroyed. First, this is nowhere mentioned in scripture whatsoever. Second, it would have been greater than Noah's Flood where 8 people, the animals on the ark and much life that lived in the sea survived . But Jesus said the great tribulation would be the greatest tribulation ever. But even in the great tribulation some people will survive. And I hardly think the destruction of Jerusalem could compare to what the Gapper's believed happened, or even Noah's flood. So I still believe Spurgeon got it wrong.