Gaza pullout question

[rsr]

Originally posted by Bro. James Reed:
Is there an actual map of the "road map" anywhere? I would like to actually see the areas under consideration.

There are no maps because everything is subject to negotiation. However, maps from the Camp David meetings are available at:

http://www.mideastweb.org/lastmaps.htm

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Thank you, rsr.

From the U.S./Israeli versions of the maps, it looks as if Palestine had a very good offer.

Agreement in 2000 could have saved hundreds of lives.

I just hope and pray that this will placate the regular Palestinians, even if not the radicals.

I don't think the radicals on either side will ever be satisfied until annihilation of their enemies is complete. Hopefully, the majority and calmer heads in Israel and Palestine will prevail here.

 

[3JesusIsGod3]

What I keep wondering is why Bush would let the Gaza pullout happen at all.

I thought he had Christian values and would understand the significance of the Promised Land. The nation of "Palestine" is mythical, has no historical rationale, and as far as I can see is against the will of God.

I'm beginning to worry that Bush isn't the Christian he claims to be.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by 3JesusIsGod3:
I thought he had Christian values and would understand the significance of the Promised Land.

Most of us Christians don't believe in the premillennial eschatology that a minority of Christians believe in that places a hyper-emphasis on the modern political State of Israel where the vast majority reject Jesus as the Son of God and have not come to Him in repentance and faith.

Also, the Israeli government decided to pull out of Gaza, not the government of these United States. Israel is a sovereign nation.

Welcome to the Baptist Board.

 

[3JesusIsGod3]

Well maybe, but Bush started the Roadmap for Peace.

Either way, the Palestinian terrorists have said they will not stop until Israel is destroyed. This is about not retreating and giving ground. At least until terrorism is stopped.

Bush said he would stop the terrorism, I think he should pressure Israel to continue to occupy the Gaza. We give a lot of aid money to Israel that we can pull, so we have a way to pressure them.

I'm just disappointed in our leaders because this seems like we are retreating from terrorists when we need to look strong. How do you think this looks in the Arab world? It looks like we are weak and that terrorism works.

Bush needs to live up to his promises.

 

[LadyEagle]

3JesusIsGod3, don't let these guys fool ya. Just cruise around the board and you'll find plenty of links that refute most of what has been posted here. See, if you don't believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture, then you can come from all kinds of places with all kinds of subjective meanings, like

Israel, as a nation, or people, in the OT is a representation of God's children.

Israel wasn't a "representation" of God's children - Israel is the Apple of God's Eye! God called them His Chosen People.

But Ken is correct when he says most Christians, (cause that's become a pretty generic term nowadays to include anyone who isn't a Buddhist, Muslim, or Jew) don't believe as you do - BUT most Baptists, including the leaders of the SBC, do believe the same as you. You're right on track.

Some of these guys believe in Replacement Theology - Christians replaced the Israel. If you Google on the web, you can read all about it. When I came to the Baptist Board, I never even knew Baptists believed any such thing - and to this day, I still don't personally know any Baptists who believe that.

So don't get confused, cause it's easy to do around here when you're new.

And Bush did pressure Sharon with the threat of withdrawing US aid to Israel if Sharon didn't comply. I've posted links elsewhere. When Condi Rice was just there, she emphasized again the need for Israel to withdraw from Gaza.

And now, terrorism has worked. The Intifada worked. All those homicide bombers getting on and blowing up innocent people on the bus, in restaurants, the pizza parlor, nightclubs - all those people blow to bits, killed, or maimed for life with bits of metal, screws, nails, shrapnel in the bombs - that are even still suffering victims today...we (meaning the US) have said forget about all of that, just make peace with these Muslims at any cost. Give them what they want. And so, terrorists won. Even that Abbas is a terrorist - he financed the murder of Israelis at the Olympics. But he was the "choice."

Abbas also pledged the Palestinian Authority would rebuild homes demolished by Israel during the past five years of conflict. He promised to reserve 5 percent of government jobs for the disabled, mainly war wounded.

He told the crowd that Israel was quitting Gaza because of Palestinian "sacrifices" and "patience," and he promised the withdrawal would lead to further pullouts from the West Bank and Jerusalem.

<snip>

"We won, so we came to thank God for our victory," said Abdel Raouf Barbar, an official of Abbas's Fatah party. With parliamentary elections scheduled in January, the party is competing with the Islamic group Hamas to claim credit for the Israeli withdrawal.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166269,00.html

It's enough to make any person who is in their right mind throw up.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by 3JesusIsGod3:
Bush said he would stop the terrorism, I think he should pressure Israel to continue to occupy the Gaza. We give a lot of aid money to Israel that we can pull, so we have a way to pressure them.

1. If we did do as you say and pulled our support from Israel, would God punish us?

2. Should we not support the nation of Israel and their decision to pull out of the Gaza Strip, or does the Biblical Mandate for us to support Israel only matter when their government does something we agree with or that agrees with our pre-mil theology? Or, does the Bible not speak of supporting modern day Israel which is mostly a secular society where most of its citizens reject Jesus as the Messiah?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[3JesusIsGod3]

Botwinik

I don't think Sharon represents all Jews. Do you?

Supporting the Jews might mean occasionally "tough love". In other words, instead of rewarding or encouraging a mistake like the Gaza pullout, we should be putting pressure on them to do the opposite. That is, keep the settlements and continue to pressure the terrorists.

The question is are we doing what really supports the Jews or what supports the terrorists? I voted for Bush but he is making a huge mistake here. It's hard for me to reconcile.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by 3JesusIsGod3:
Botwinik

I don't think Sharon represents all Jews. Do you?

As of right now, Sharon is the duly elected leader of Israel, and as such, represents Israel. Are you now going to make a delineation between supporting Jews and supporting Israel? What does the Bible say about this?

Supporting the Jews might mean occasionally "tough love". In other words, instead of rewarding or encouraging a mistake like the Gaza pullout, we should be putting pressure on them to do the opposite. That is, keep the settlements and continue to pressure the terrorists.

The question is are we doing what really supports the Jews or what supports the terrorists? I voted for Bush but he is making a huge mistake here. It's hard for me to reconcile. [/QUOTE]

1. So threatening divestment which would certainly hurt a majority of Jews in Israel is your idea of supporting Israel because they aren't doing what you want them to do? Tell me, did the Bible make certain caveats about when we should or should not support Israel...only when they agree with us?

2. I am honestly a bit skeptical, but hopeful that Israel has not repeated the same mistakes of Oslo in the 90's. It is painful to watch. If Sharon is wrong, the Israelis will take care of him politically in the next election without any pressure from the United States. If he is right, and yes I know that is a big IF, he will go down as one of the greatest leaders in the history of Israel and the future generations of Israeli children will finally be able to look forward to the hope of living in peace instead of fear, pre-millers will call Sharon the anti-Christ who brought about peace, and preterists like me will just sit back and laugh at that kind of nonsense.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[3JesusIsGod3]

Botwinik

Ok but Sharon is acting partly due to pressure from Bush. So it isn't as though they are making these decisions without pressure from the US.

If we are going to pressure them, one way or another, which way should it be?

Should it be to support the Biblical view, or should it be to support the terrorists?

Bush got this one wrong. I feel like post-election he's already starting to show signs of forgetting who put him there. It really is getting disappointing.

 

[LadyEagle]

Joseph, your assumption that the people of Israel back Sharon in this pullout business is just that - an assumption. Israel is divided about the Road Map, just as the US is divided about the Iraq war.

Sharon isn't the Anti-Christ. And neither is Bush. But they are setting the stage for the anti-Christ to emerge. Only a Muslim leader can stand up (like OBL) and unite the Arabs for the 7 year peace plan with Israel.

But Sharon will lose the next election. Netanyahu will win because he knows the terrorism won't stop.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

LE,

Please quote me where I said Sharon had the support of the Israeli people in this pullout business.

Thank You,

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by 3JesusIsGod3:
Botwinik

Ok but Sharon is acting partly due to pressure from Bush. So it isn't as though they are making these decisions without pressure from the US.

I believe Sharon has shown in the past that when Bush and the United States have pressured him to do things that are not in the best interest of Israel (I am specifically thinking about tearing down the wall), that he is perfectly capable and willing to basically ignore them. I commend him for that also...don't you?

If we are going to pressure them, one way or another, which way should it be?

Should it be to support the Biblical view, or should it be to support the terrorists?[/QUOTE]

It should be to support a view which calls for human rights, democratic reforms, and an end to terrorist groups among the Palestinians which would lead to a democratic state. I think this would be a Biblical view that God would bless since it would lead to peace (I.E: Blessed are the peacemakers...). Sharon probably sees this as a good opportunity to make peace since Arafat is now dead, and it seems that Abbas is more moderate and making overtures for peace instead of inciting violence. The million dollar question that is yet to be seen in the long run is whether or not Abbas is serious about ending terrorism and improving the living conditions of his own people, or if he is simply all talk and Israel has just repeated the mistakes of Oslo. I certainly hope not.

Bush got this one wrong. I feel like post-election he's already starting to show signs of forgetting who put him there. It really is getting disappointing. [/QUOTE]

This may be. But, I would invite you to go back and see when the road map was written, and I think it will be abundantly clear that it was before being re-elected. Were you not paying attention?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[3JesusIsGod3]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9013350/page/2/

"Throughout the week, various militant groups staged “victory” marches toward the Gush Katif settlement bloc, with crowds led by masked gunmen. Initially, Palestinian police were ill-prepared to stop the marchers but in recent days deployed rows of riot police."

I think terrorists marching in victory parades about sums it all up.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I guess you're right. Never mind the Palestinian riot police going out there to stop them.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

From the same article on MSNBC:

Early Israeli elections could be held in the spring. However, it appears unlikely a pro-settler candidate, such as former Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, will defeat the popular Sharon.

I wonder why they would think that. Any ideas?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Sharon says that after the Gaza pullout, the Palestinians must work hard to prove themselves worthy as peace partners by dismantling militant groups and carrying out government reform. Only then could the two sides get started on the “road map” — the internationally backed plan that would eventually lead to Palestinian statehood.

Reciprocity is a good thing. Let's wait and see if it will happen and if Abbas is really serious about wanting peace.

So far, I will say that sending the riot police to stop the terrorist demonstrators is a good first step. Don't you?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Earlier this week, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice suggested that Israel must keep going. “Everyone empathizes with what the Israelis are facing,” she told The New York Times, referring to the Gaza pullout, but added that “it cannot be Gaza only.”

Condi is wrong here. Israel has done enough for now. Let's see what the Palestinians have to offer in this deal, and then perhaps, then they will start discussing moving forward. There is no reason for Israel to give away all its bargaining chips at once on the way to negotiating peace.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[3JesusIsGod3]

Masked gunman? That's ok with you?

Did the "riot police" disarm any of them? Not that I know of.

I just can't believe we are being so weak to give in to this.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

In Gaza, Abbas’ security forces were working hard to keep Palestinian militants from disrupting the pullout by opening fire on soldiers or settlers.

Throughout the week, various militant groups staged “victory” marches toward the Gush Katif settlement bloc, with crowds led by masked gunmen. Initially, Palestinian police were ill-prepared to stop the marchers but in recent days deployed rows of riot police.

On Friday, Abbas was quick to ride the growing wave of joy over Israel’s departure, and promised fenced-in Gazans freedom of movement, jobs and housing.

Sounds to me like Abbas is putting forth a good faith effort for now. Let's see where this goes from here.

Joseph Botwinick