Gaza pullout question

[LadyEagle]

Brother Reed, the greenhouses are being DONATED to the Palestinians. You would know that if you read the links I posted above.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Joseph, your assumption that the people of Israel back Sharon in this pullout business is just that - an assumption. Israel is divided about the Road Map, just as the US is divided about the Iraq war.

LE,

You got me to thinking with this statement, and I decided to do some snooping into this. I am not finished looking yet, but here is some polling data concerning this issue that I have found from Israel:

http://www.ipforum.org/serial.cfm?rid=1191

If you have some other polling data that you would like to share, please feel free to do so.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Here is what Reuters reports about public opinion in Israel about the pullout:

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Jewish settler leaders announced plans on Wednesday to send 70,000 supporters marching toward settlements in the Gaza Strip in a last-ditch bid to stop next month's planned withdrawal. The settler leaders said they had less than four weeks to turn Israeli public opinion against Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's plan to evacuate 9,000 settlers from all 21 settlements in the Gaza Strip and four in the northern West Bank.

and

Most Israelis support Sharon's plan to withdraw from parts of the occupied territories starting in mid-August, which he says will reduce points of friction with the Palestinians.

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=gaza+withdrawal+israeli+public+opinion&ei=UTF-8&fl=0&x=wrt

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LadyEagle]

Hmmm....

well, look at this:

June 9, 2005

New Israeli Poll: Support For Gaza Withdrawal Plan Drops To 48%

http://www.zoa.org/pressrel2005/20050609a.htm

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Brother Reed, the greenhouses are being DONATED to the Palestinians. You would know that if you read the links I posted above.

Thank you, LE, for having such faith in me. You know, I actually did read the first link posted. The problem is, you did not read them carefully.

The very first lines from the CNN article state the following:

A private foundation has raised $14 million to buy most of the greenhouses in Jewish settlements in Gaza , a representative of former Israeli Knesset member Yossi Beilin said Friday.

The Economic Cooperation Foundation will transfer the money to the settlers and the greenhouses will be handed over to the Palestinian Authority.

The money was raised by International Quartet special envoy James Wolfensohn, a former World Bank president who also contributed $500,000 of his money.

The settlers are being paid for the greenhouses which were bought by the ECF. The ECF, an independent entity, not the Israeli government as you insinuated, will then donate the greenhouses to the Palestinians.

You really should take the time to read the articles you post.

 

[LadyEagle]

Brother Reed, the United States is called the Great Satan by terrorists. Israel is called the Little Satan by terrorists, thus my reference to the Great Satan.

Please let me clarify:

The greenhouses are being DONATED to the Palestinians, not purchased BY Palestinians. The money for the greenhouses was DONATED by the benevolence of the ECF whose membership is comprised mainly of Americans (the Great Satan).

You really should take the time to read the posts I post.

[ August 21, 2005, 12:13 AM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

[LadyEagle]

The poll, shown on an Israeli television network, showed 42% of members would back Mr Netanyahu in a party leadership vote, while only 27% supported the prime minister.

Quote taken from this article which is discussing the Gaza pullout:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4139636.stm

 

[church mouse guy]

I think that Mort Zuckerman is the big gun in this deal. He is a billionaire and the publisher of US News & World Report. Once again the Arabs have their hands out begging. You would think that the Arabs would pay their own way once in awhile, wouldn't you?

 

[KenH]

The politics is real simple: If the Palestinians behave, then Sharon is the big, big, big political winner. If they don't, then Sharon loses power but that would not necessarily mean that Bibi would be the next prime minister. But it could. Or the Israelis could decide to give the Labor Party another chance.

 

[LadyEagle]

Brother Reed, I believe Mort Zuckerman is a Jew. Thus my reference to the Great Satan's (GS) Jews. At any rate, it is Americans (the Great Satan) once again throwing money at problems, those evil, uncaring, wretched Americans, whom the world hates.

Yep you would think, CMG. I read an article at Front Page magazine which tells about the Palestinians being on the US/UN dole for so many years. I will see if I can find it, but not tonight.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

LE, forgive me. I thought you were commenting about me stating that the settlers were being paid and the greenhouses were being bought. I apologize for misconstruing your comments.

As far as the poll you posted, it is not adequate because it did not post both sides (for and against). It only showed those for the withdrawal is below 50%.

I found on wikipedia the following about polls in Israel:

A September 15, 2004 survey published in Maariv showed that:

69% supported a general referendum to decide on the plan;
26% thought that approval in the Knesset would be enough.

If a referendum were to be held,

58% would vote for the disengagement plan, while
29% would vote against it.

Recent polls on support for the plan have consistently shown

support for the plan in the 50-60% range , and
opposition in the 30-40% range .

A June 9, 2005 Dahaf Institute/Yedioth Ahronoth poll showed

support for the plan at 53% , and
opposition at 38% .

A June 17 telephone poll published in Maariv showed

54% of Israel’s Jews supporting the plan .

A poll carried out by the Midgam polling company, on June 29 found

support at 48% and
opposition at 41% ,

but a Dahaf Institute/Yedioth Ahronot poll of the same day found

support at 62% and
opposition at 31% .

A poll conducted the week of July 17 by the Tel Aviv University Institute for Media, Society, and Politics shows that

Israeli approval of the disengagement is at 48% ;

43% of the respondents believe that Palestinian terrorism will increase following disengagement, versus 25% who believe that terrorism will decline.

No matter how you slice it, these polls consistently show that approval of the Gaza withdrawal is greater than disapproval.

The 48% in favor of withdrawal is the opposite side of the coin which also stated that 33% were not in favor of withdrawal, with the rest polled stating that they had no opinion on the matter.

So, truthfully, you have 33% in against withdrawing and 67% who either want to withdraw or don't care if Israel does withdraw.

The Israeli opponents of the withdrawal are simply in the minorty on this issue. Israel is a democracy that is working the way it is supposed to work.

btw, the emphasis and spacing in the quote above is mine. I did it to make the percentages and the different polls a little more distinguishable.

 

[church mouse guy]

The polling is in favor of it because the situation in Gaza had become militarily indefensible. If you are going to fight a war, you need to be able to win it. Bush and the Europeans would not let Israel go into Gaza and win the war. Therefore, the Jews did the smart thing and pulled out to borders that are easier to defend.

Bush got made a fool of by Sharon because Bush insisted on this deal as payback for his invasion of Iraq. Bush may not pull out of Iraq before victory but he did push some of the compromise off on Israel. When this deal backfires, as it probably will, then Bush will have a blot against his name. At any rate, Bush forced the bill for this insanity off on the US taxpayer. Now we have a terrorist welfare state on our payroll.

Meanwhile the Presbyterians are threatening to divest if Israel continues to build the wall. If I were the Jews, I would tell the Presbyterians to take their dirty money and stay out of Israel.

Afterall, this is war and the pretenses are gone, aren't they?

 

[Bro. James Reed]

I would like to reiterate that I am not on the side of the Palestinians on this issue. I simply desire peace, or a semblance thereof, in that region.

Of course, Israel is a sovereign nation and what they choose to do as a democratically elected nation is their business. If they had chose to remain in Gaza and fight the terrorists full force, I would have been okay with that too.

Legally speaking, the property belongs to Israel because it was seized from the enemy during a time of war. It is no different than the Mexican-American war and the resulting land going to the U.S. If the U.S. had chosen to give the land back several years later, they certainly could have. They were also right in keeping the land, though.

If I was one of the settlers in Gaza, I would probably be right there fighting for my home too. That does not make it right though. If Harris County decided to build a highway through my living room and give me the boot, I would protest just like the Gaza settlers, but legally speaking, the government has the right to take my property for the public good. Israel believes that the confiscated Gaza strip will best serve Israelis by being given to Palestinians. That is their right to decide.

Believe me when I say that I have thought on more than one occasion, "boy, I wish the Israelis would just go in there and kick the booties of every Palestinian." Now, for the sake of trying to give peace a chance in a way other than force, I go along with the decision to withdraw. If it doesn't work, I would then be in favor of once again taking the land and using military force to stop the terrorists and their friends.

I hope and pray that it does not come to that, so I am willing, just like many Israelis, and my brothers Joseph, Ken, etc, to give peace a chance using this method.

LE, if it doesn't work, then you can say "I told you so" and then we can do things your way.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Meanwhile the Presbyterians are threatening to divest if Israel continues to build the wall. If I were the Jews, I would tell the Presbyterians to take their dirty money and stay out of Israel.

cmg, those Presbos are just being stupid with this, imo.

I think the Israelis should build the wall around the whole north, east, and south borders.

I wish we would get smart, follow their lead, and do the same here.

I was watching NASCAR today and noticed the fences blocking the car debris from the spectators. We should build one of those curvy-topped fences along the border, except in needs to be about 50 feet high with barbed-wire. Think that would keep some of the illegals out?

 

[church mouse guy]

I couldn't agree more--we need an Israeli style fence along our borders north and south--one big enough that it can be seen from outer space like the great wall of China.