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General Reconciliation

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AustinC

Well-Known Member
Why are you constructing faults and implying they are mine? Why not address the topic.
How are we saved? Does it in any way "depend" on our willingness to be saved? Nope We are saved by God alone, for it is God who either credits our worthless filthy rag faith as righteousness or not. This poppycock about robbing God of His glory is just another smear by Calvinism. The biblical truth is when we in our fallen and corrupt state turn to God and repent, we glorify God.

Reconciliation is available to everyone.

Reconciliation is preached to everyone.
No one, who is dead in sins, has any faith to be credited.
Having faith is not a prerequisite that God demands before He reconciles a human being.
The biblical truth is when we, in our dead in trespasses state are made alive, by God, and saved by grace. God then gives us faith to believe and in believing we see our sin and repent.

Van, you make salvation a willful choice by man to pick God.
I make salvation a willful choice by God to pick man (without any faith being necessary at the point of God's choice).
We fundamentally disagree and it seems that God will need to correct one of us...or perhaps both of us.
 

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
I do not advocate "universal atonement" but I do advocate "general reconciliation." The difference between general and universal is that universal suggests that the reconciliation is applied individually to everybody. I do not think this is what the bible teaches. But Jesus being the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, God reconciling the world (humankind) to Himself, indicates redemption is available to everybody; Jesus having paid the ransom for all. If you read in 2 Corinthians 5:18-21, you see that being reconciled in the general sense, does not indicate you have "received" the reconciliation individually, that is why we have the ministry of reconciliation. Therefore the difference between general reconciliation and individual reconciliation is in who has "received" the reconciliation. And this occurs when God places us individually "in Christ." (1 Corinthians 1:30)

Here is a summary of Particular Reconciliation and General Reconciliation

Particular Reconciliation:
(1) God preselected folks for salvation before creation
(2) Christ came and died for those folks - limited atonement
(3) God gives those folks faith in Christ, then accepts their faith and places them in Christ.

General Reconciliation
(1) God selected Christ to redeem believers before creation. Therefore those chosen and placed in Christ during their lifetime through belief in the truth were corporately chosen as the target group of His redemption plan before the foundation of the world.
(2) Christ came and died for humankind in general but not specifically for each individual.
(3) God chooses folks and places them in Christ after accepting their faith and reckoning it as righteousness.

The first point of difference centers on the meaning of Ephesians 1:4 which says we (born again believers) were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means being chosen as foreseen individuals. General Reconciliation maintains that being chosen in Him means Christ was chosen to be the Lamb of God before the foundation of the world and anyone subsequently redeemed by the Lamb was corporately chosen because you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem..

The second point of difference centers on the meaning of 1 John 2:2 which says He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world. Particular Reconciliation maintains that Jesus is the propitiation not only for elect Jews but also for elect Gentiles. General Reconciliation maintains that Christ is the propitiation not only for believers, but also for everybody else, the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice provides the means of salvation, the mechanism of reconciliation. When God puts a believer spiritually in Christ they “receive” the reconciliation provided by Christ’s sacrifice.

The third point of difference centers on the meaning of Romans 4:5 which says but to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness. Particular Reconciliation maintains the “his faith” was supernaturally given to him by God because the unregenerate are spiritually unable to trust in Christ. General Reconciliation maintains “his faith” is the individual’s trust in Christ, because if it were God’s gift of faith, it would not need to be reckoned as righteousness.
Your understanding misses the reason God created. It is not about people. It is about his glory. And as Paul indicates, the damnation of many and the salvation of others glorifies his wrath and mercy. If he followed your agenda, we could not know him by his attributes.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Reconciliation is preached to everyone.
No one, who is dead in sins, has any faith to be credited.
Having faith is not a prerequisite that God demands before He reconciles a human being.
The biblical truth is when we, in our dead in trespasses state are made alive, by God, and saved by grace. God then gives us faith to believe and in believing we see our sin and repent.

Van, you make salvation a willful choice by man to pick God.
I make salvation a willful choice by God to pick man (without any faith being necessary at the point of God's choice).
We fundamentally disagree and it seems that God will need to correct one of us...or perhaps both of us.

I like/love your last sentence. And I might add, Me also.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Your understanding misses the reason God created. It is not about people. It is about his glory. And as Paul indicates, the damnation of many and the salvation of others glorifies his wrath and mercy. If he followed your agenda, we could not know him by his attributes.

Your understanding misses the reason God created. It is not about people. It is about his glory.

Your posting that made me think of my thread in C&A John 3:16 pt 2 which no one has commented upon.

God created for the, "In Hope," by which the glory to God comes.

Read in the context of what you posted above.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jesus said He calls His sheep by name. That is a specific call of specific people, it is not a general call. When He calls, they follow Him, every single time. They are His sheep before He calls, He calls them by name. They don’t “become” His sheep when they respond to His call.
No need to insult me and call me names, I know your arguments. I’m just repeating what Jesus said.
peace to you

1) The fact that Jesus calls His sheep by name is not in dispute. The absurdity that calling a person by name equates with the call of the gospel is poppycock and nonsense.

2) The topic has General Reconciliation and Particular Reconciliation, so no need to change subjects to external call and effectual call.

3) Please provide the post # where I called you names.
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Reconciliation is preached to everyone.
No one, who is dead in sins, has any faith to be credited.
Having faith is not a prerequisite that God demands before He reconciles a human being.
The biblical truth is when we, in our dead in trespasses state are made alive, by God, and saved by grace. God then gives us faith to believe and in believing we see our sin and repent.

Van, you make salvation a willful choice by man to pick God.
I make salvation a willful choice by God to pick man (without any faith being necessary at the point of God's choice).
We fundamentally disagree and it seems that God will need to correct one of us...or perhaps both of us.
On and on folks, smokescreed to hide truth.

How many verses refer to "his faith" or "your faith?" Calvinism must rewrite all those verses. :)
Next we are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith, therefore the premise that we are given faith after we are put in Christ is obviously false doctrine.
Next, once again Calvinists claim I say salvation "depends" on our willingness to be saved, which is absolutely false. Salvation depends on God alone.
I like to think God is using me to prod you toward truth which is plainly laid out in scripture. See the OP for example
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Your understanding misses the reason God created. It is not about people. It is about his glory. And as Paul indicates, the damnation of many and the salvation of others glorifies his wrath and mercy. If he followed your agenda, we could not know him by his attributes.
Nonsense, we bring glory to God when we repent.
Paul does not say God is "glorified" by exercising His wrath. That is poppycock and nonsense. No quote will be forthcoming.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
On and on folks, smokescreed to hide truth.

How many verses refer to "his faith" or "your faith?" Calvinism must rewrite all those verses. :)
Next we are chosen for salvation through or on the basis of faith, therefore the premise that we are given faith after we are put in Christ is obviously false doctrine.
Next, once again Calvinists claim I say salvation "depends" on our willingness to be saved, which is absolutely false. Salvation depends on God alone.
I like to think God is using me to prod you toward truth which is plainly laid out in scripture. See the OP for example

Please share the verse that says "we are chosen for salvation based upon the faith we display."

I have never read any verse in the Bible that says such a thing or even implies such a thing. Therefore, unless you can clearly produce that verse, I call your teaching false.
Your turn to prove your teaching isn't false, Van.
Where does the Bible say, "we are chosen for salvation based upon the faith we display."???
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
Calvinists love to smear others because they do not love truth.
Calvinists love to smear those presenting truth.
On and on folks, smokescreed to hide truth.
Van,
In the light of what is quoted above, I'd like to suggest that if you're going to judge someone for doing something, that you do your level best not to be guilty of it yourself ( Matthew 7:1-2 ).
Wouldn't you agree?

After all, we as believers all have the same problem with a flesh in which dwells no good thing ( Romans 7:14-25 ), so it behooves us to be mindful of how we come across to others, doesn't it?
I also know that I have my own troubles in this area, but by God's grace He is changing that.


May He bless you with many good gifts in the coming days.
 
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canadyjd

Well-Known Member
1) The fact that Jesus calls His sheep by name is not in dispute. The absurdity that calling a person by name equates with the call of the gospel is poppycock and nonsense.

2) The topic has General Reconciliation and Particular Reconciliation, so no need to change subjects to external call and effectual call.

3) Please provide the post # where I called you names.
The passage, in context, Jesus is clearly speaking of a call to salvation. Jesus says of those He calls, they will follow him, He will lose none and raise them up. He is clearly speaking of a call to salvation.

To call it “poppycock” and “nonsense” is missing the clear understanding of the text.

Thanks for not calling me names.

peace to you
 

Derf B

Active Member
Jesus said He calls His sheep by name and they follow Him....and He will lose none the Father has given Him.

That is a specific call to reconciliation, not a general call. They are His sheep before they follow Him. He calls them by name.

peace to you
I guess the difference is that the good shepherd in Jesus’ illustration didn’t know all his sheep’s names before the sheep existed. He only calls his sheep by name that exist and have been given a name. And he (the shepherd) is the one that gives them names, after they are born. How many shepherds give names to sheep that don’t exist yet?
 

Derf B

Active Member
The passage, in context, Jesus is clearly speaking of a call to salvation. Jesus says of those He calls, they will follow him, He will lose none and raise them up. He is clearly speaking of a call to salvation.
All the dead will be raised up in the last day. And it must be Jesus that raises them up, as He is the resurrection and the life. Are you saying all are saved?
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
I guess the difference is that the good shepherd in Jesus’ illustration didn’t know all his sheep’s names before the sheep existed. He only calls his sheep by name that exist and have been given a name. And he (the shepherd) is the one that gives them names, after they are born. How many shepherds give names to sheep that don’t exist yet?
The Lord does:

Psalms 139.
Jeremiah 1:5.
Acts of the Apostles 15:18.
Romans 8:29-30.

He also gives them new names:

Isaiah 62:2.
Revelation 2:17.
Revelation 3:12.

On a side note, I really like this passage:

" [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." ( Isaiah 43:7 ).



Good evening to you, and I wish you well.
 
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atpollard

Well-Known Member
How many shepherds give names to sheep that don’t exist yet?
[1Ch 22:8-10 NASB] 8 "But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'You have shed much blood and have waged great wars; you shall not build a house to My name, because you have shed [so] much blood on the earth before Me. 9 'Behold, a son will be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies on every side; for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. 10 'He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

Only one ... God!
(This is fun.) ;)
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
@atpollard :

Ooooo....I didn't see that one coming.
How about this one:

" But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb."
( Luke 1:13-15 ).
 
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Derf B

Active Member
This was disappointing, Dave.
The Lord does:

Psalms 139.
Jeremiah 1:5.
Acts of the Apostles 15:18.
Romans 8:29-30.

He also gives them new names:

Isaiah 62:2.
Revelation 2:17.
Revelation 3:12.

On a side note, I really like this passage:

" [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." ( Isaiah 43:7 ).



Good evening to you, and I wish you well.
None of these verses give examples of God calling a sheep's name before the sheep existed, much less before the beginning of the world.

Kudos to @atpollard, who found this one:
[1Ch 22:8-10 NASB] 8 "But the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 'You have shed much blood and have waged great wars; you shall not build a house to My name, because you have shed [so] much blood on the earth before Me. 9 'Behold, a son will be born to you, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies on every side; for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quiet to Israel in his days. 10 'He shall build a house for My name, and he shall be My son and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

Only one ... God!
(This is fun.) ;)
You're right! only one--God--could do such a thing. And so Jesus' illustration of a good shepherd, which all of his listeners would have understood in the context of a pastoral society, would not have made sense to them regarding someone calling sheep's names before they existed, nor calling someone who was not yet one of his sheep away from a different (not so good) shepherd, since that was strictly forbidden in the law, which Jesus wouldn't break even in a parable. Yet that's what you are suggesting.

The Solomon quote is a good one. Yet that last line (and all the others, really) is pretty obviously talking about Jesus, who would be called the "Prince of Peace". So while some of the words apply to Solomon, Solomon was not wholeheartedly committed to God, and the throne of his kingdom--you know, the one God said would be established forever over "Israel"--was splintered the very next generation, with "Israel" rebelling and walking away.

@atpollard :

Ooooo....I didn't see that one coming.
How about this one:

" But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb."
( Luke 1:13-15 ).

Kudos back to you for this one, Dave. Samson also was filled with the Holy Ghost, and was not to drink wine nor strong drink (but he did). And King Saul, who ended his own life after being rejected by God.

I was surprised that neither of you mentioned Cyrus. Cyrus was named over a hundred years before his birth. [Isa 45:1, 4 KJV] 1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; ... 4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

or Josiah:
[1Ki 13:2 KJV] 2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

But Cyrus wasn't a sheep: [Isa 44:28 KJV] 28 That saith of Cyrus, [He is] my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.

Neither was Josiah. He also was a shepherd, as all kings are supposed to be.

Jesus was making a point about sheep that are already His, and they know whose they are. It's an established relationship. So it can't be equated with the effectual gospel call to a dead person or someone else's sheep.
 

Derf B

Active Member
Nope.
(Boy, that was an easy question.)
Well, your answer was easy, I suppose. The question, not so much. If Jesus raises all at the last day, and He is the resurrection, how can you say that those people aren't saved from death?
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nonsense, we bring glory to God when we repent.
Paul does not say God is "glorified" by exercising His wrath. That is poppycock and nonsense. No quote will be forthcoming.

which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:14
the eyes of your understanding being enlightened, for your knowing what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, Eph 1:18

It appears to me, that our inheritance, the redemption of our body, becomes the inherited glory of God.
 

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
Nonsense, we bring glory to God when we repent.
Paul does not say God is "glorified" by exercising His wrath. That is poppycock and nonsense. No quote will be forthcoming.
You are stealing God's glory when you repent without giving him thanks or credit. Bristling instead with self-righteousness. God glories when he grants repentance to you and gives you a repentant heart. There's nothing worse than stealing God's glory. Herod tried it and was eaten of worms.
 
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