General Reconciliation

[Van]

You are adding to scripture what is not stated in scripture. That's how false teaching starts...

Yet another false charge, another change the subject to my behavior. This is all they have folks. "Through faith" refers to something being accomplished because of or by reason of or on the basis of our faith. And of course God takes action on the basis of our faith only after crediting our faith as righteousness. If He does not, He takes no action.

 

[Van]

We cannot solve your problem without probing it.

Yet another attempt to change the subject to my behavior, which again is the practice of deceit. The actual topic is general reconciliation

 

[1689Dave]

Yet another attempt to change the subject to my behavior, which again is the practice of deceit. The actual topic is general reconciliation

This will help refute the idea of general reconciliation.

 

[Van]

This will help refute the idea of general reconciliation.

Smokescreed of poppycock and nonsense.
General reconciliation is the biblical doctrine, Calvinism's limited atonement is false doctrine.

 

[1689Dave]

Smokescreed of poppycock and nonsense.
General reconciliation is the biblical doctrine, Calvinism's limited atonement is false doctrine.

You cannot prove this with a whitewash of cherry-picked texts.

 

[Van]

You cannot prove this with a whitewash of cherry-picked texts.

Calvinism claims you should ignore all the evidence for general reconciliation because those supporting verses were "cherry picked" which is code for taken out of context such that the actual meaning is altered.

If I point out Christ "bought" with His blood people headed for destruction, 2 Peter 2:1, why you can ignore it because it was cherry picked.

If I point out Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6, why you can ignore it because it was cherry picked.

On and on folks, one false argument after another to hide truth.

 

[1689Dave]

Calvinism claims you should ignore all the evidence for general reconciliation because those supporting verses were "cherry picked" which is code for taken out of context such that the actual meaning is altered.

If I point out Christ "bought" with His blood people headed for destruction, 2 Peter 2:1, why you can ignore it because it was cherry picked.

If I point out Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, 1 Timothy 2:6, why you can ignore it because it was cherry picked.

On and on folks, one false argument after another to hide truth.

There is no such thing if most are damned from birth. And only a relative few saved which scripture makes abundantly clear.

 

[Van]

There is no such thing if most are damned from birth. And only a relative few saved which scripture makes abundantly clear.

Yet another "taint so" post references a fact not in dispute as if it conflicted with general reconciliation and individual election. That fact that few are those who "find" the narrow path that leads to [eternal] life is not in dispute. The denial that Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, that Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world (humankind) is in dispute by those that ignore 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6.

What do you suppose Dave meant by "most" in his phrase "most are damned from birth?"
Everyone but Christ? I hope so. Or was he excluding some, saying they were not condemned already because of unbelief, or were not "children of wrath" or were not a chosen people. (John 3:18, Ephesians 2:3 and 1 Peter 2:10)

 

[1689Dave]

Yet another "taint so" post references a fact not in dispute as if it conflicted with general reconciliation and individual election. That fact that few are those who "find" the narrow path that leads to [eternal] life is not in dispute. The denial that Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, that Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world (humankind) is in dispute by those that ignore 1 John 2:2 and 1 Timothy 2:6.

You cannot prove universal atonement from scripture without censoring available passages.

 

[Van]

You cannot prove universal atonement from scripture without censoring available passages.

Note folks, this poster cannot seem to get anything right. Did I advocate Universal atonement? Nope
Did I censor or ignore any passage? Nope
Did I support general reconciliation by citing 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6 and 2 Peter 2:1? Yes
Did I point out that because Christ died for all humankind, He died for everyone chosen for salvation on the basis of faith in the truth. But not exclusively for the church!!

 

[canadyjd]

I will agree, one of us is missing the clear meaning of the text.
Since you did not provide the post number where I supposedly called you names, I will take this post as an apology for smearing me in your post #19.

John 10:3 (NASB) “To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

Using sound hermeneutics and logical necessity, not to mention context, we see that the sheep (mankind) hear his voice (the ones who are "of My sheep" and that Jesus calls "his own sheep" by name. So this has nothing to do with the call of the gospel to believe in Christ, but rather that once placed in Christ, we are known intimately, and therefore Christ calls us by our individual names.

Shepards would put their sheep in a common pen at certain times during the winter. When it was time to retrieve them a Shepard would call to his sheep and they would recognize his voice and only his sheep would follow him out.

Jesus is using this type of well known event as analogy to calling the people chosen for salvation. They are already His sheep, prior to calling. He calls them by name demonstrating a specific call to specific people. They all follow Him and refuse to follow anyone else.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Shepards would put their sheep in a common pen at certain times during the winter. When it was time to retrieve them a Shepard would call to his sheep and they would recognize his voice and only his sheep would follow him out.

Jesus is using this type of well known event as analogy to calling the people chosen for salvation. They are already His sheep, prior to calling. He calls them by name demonstrating a specific call to specific people. They all follow Him and refuse to follow anyone else.
peace to you

Poppycock and nonsense. Scripture does not say or suggest Jesus called those to be His sheep by name. As you clearly said, Jesus called those already His sheep by name.

Thus you have not provided any support for your interpretation of scripture.

1) The fact that Jesus calls His sheep by name is not in dispute. The absurdity that calling a person by name equates with the call of the gospel is poppycock and nonsense.

2) The topic is General Reconciliation and Particular Reconciliation, so no need to change subjects to external call and effectual call.

 

[Dave G]

Thus because we were chosen through or on the basis of "faith in the truth" we already had faith (as credited by God as righteousness) before being chosen. Game, set and match.

" And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ).

 

[canadyjd]

Poppycock and nonsense. Scripture does not say or suggest Jesus called those to be His sheep by name. As you clearly said, Jesus called those already His sheep by name.

Thus you have not provided any support for your interpretation of scripture.

1) The fact that Jesus calls His sheep by name is not in dispute. The absurdity that calling a person by name equates with the call of the gospel is poppycock and nonsense.

2) The topic is General Reconciliation and Particular Reconciliation, so no need to change subjects to external call and effectual call.

I see we are talking past each other. Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[atpollard]

Poppycock and nonsense.

... at least we are expanding your vocabulary.

"smokescreed" is not a word, but "poppycock" is a word.

poppycock (slang): empty talk or writing : nonsense
Fist used in 1852. Dutch dialect pappekak, literally, soft dung, from Dutch pap pap + kak dung

 

[Dave G]

The topic is General Reconciliation and Particular Reconciliation, so no need to change subjects to external call and effectual call.

The topic is indeed "General Reconciliation " versus "Particular Reconciliation".
This includes an "effectual call", Van, because it is "particular":

"Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," ( 2 Timothy 1:9 ).

 

[Dave G]

There is no such thing if most are damned from birth. And only a relative few saved which scripture makes abundantly clear.

What do you suppose Dave meant by "most" in his phrase "most are damned from birth?"
Everyone but Christ? I hope so. Or was he excluding some, saying they were not condemned already because of unbelief, or were not "children of wrath" or were not a chosen people. (John 3:18, Ephesians 2:3 and 1 Peter 2:10)

I'd say that he was referring to the Scriptural teachings found in Romans 9 and other places, Van.

The fact that God has made vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy ( Romans 9:22-24 ), that there is a remnant according to the election of grace even in God's chosen nation of Israel ( Romans 11:5-8 ) and that there are relatively few that be saved ( Matthew 7:14 ).

Again, I wish you God's blessing upon your studies.

 

[Derf B]

I do not pit Scripture against Scripture, but accept the truth of each and every verse within its surrounding paragraph, chapter and book.

Which is the same thing as pitting scripture against scripture. You use scripture to interpret scripture, right?

Could you post the specific verse or verses to which you refer that claim(s) "Jesus raises all at the last day" and "He is the resurrection" and "those people are all saved from death"?
I am familiar with no verse that teaches this, but I am willing to be enlightened.

John 5:21 (KJV) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[1689Dave]

Note folks, this poster cannot seem to get anything right. Did I advocate Universal atonement? Nope
Did I censor or ignore any passage? Nope
Did I support general reconciliation by citing 1 John 2:2, 1 Timothy 2:6 and 2 Peter 2:1? Yes
Did I point out that because Christ died for all humankind, He died for everyone chosen for salvation on the basis of faith in the truth. But not exclusively for the church!!

General reconciliation would depend on universal atonement. Which ends up in Pelagianism.

 

[AustinC]

Which is the same thing as pitting scripture against scripture. You use scripture to interpret scripture, right?

John 5:21 (KJV) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Who is good?

That answer will show you who have been chosen to redemption and who has been chosen to damnation.
Hint: No human does good in themselves.