Glorification is what’s limited, not atonement.

[Sai]

I don't know what you mean by "Arminians", but one thing's for sure, our Calvinist brethren are very humble, as they often point out.

Just a poke at the work for your salvation doctrine.

 

[George Antonios]

Just a poke at the work for your salvation doctrine.

And what doctrine is that?

 

[Sai]

No I freely trusted in Jesus .

Only because God placed a self imposed limit upon his divine sovereignty. Which is how to answer the hyper Calvinists. Just as God has the power and ability to destroy the earth with another flood but he cannot do it. Because he placed a self imposed limitation upon his ability to flood the earth again by promising not to do so.

The death in the garden was spiritual death. By one man sin and death. Spiritual life would require the grace of God because the justice of God required the death penalty both physical and spiritual. Grace included the action of God’s foreknowing which included preplanning. God knew all of the world would be dead spiritually as he knew Eve would be deceived and Adam would disobey. The knowledge of God is t mere future knowledge. What is meant by omniscience of God is that he knows everything simultaneously at the same time. In God’s knowledge God allowed for the creation of Adam to move ahead, to forge forward if you will, because God’s love moved to save a minority from creation, his elect. However, God required faith for salvation from a species of spiritually dead creatures who were not capable of faith (like Adam hiding displayed). To say that we in our birth state physically, are capable of faith, is to diminish God’s warning in the garden and to support the evil one’s lie that Adam did not die (spiritually).

God provided divine enabling to everyone who accepted him as the one true God.

 

[Sai]

And what doctrine is that?

Eternal security.

 

[George Antonios]

God’s love moved to save a minority from creation, his elect. However, God required faith for salvation from a species of spiritually dead creatures who were not capable of faith (like Adam hiding displayed). To say that we in our birth state physically, are capable of faith, is to diminish God’s warning in the garden and to support the evil one’s lie that Adam did not die (spiritually).

For such a core doctrine, there are surprisingly few (read "none") verses. How strange.

 

[George Antonios]

Eternal security.

Eternal security is Arminian but not Calvinist? I don't follow you.

 

[Sai]

For such a core doctrine, there are surprisingly few (read "none") verses. How strange.

Eternal security?

 

[Sai]

Eternal security is Arminian but not Calvinist? I don't follow you.

Then you did not get the joke.

 

[Sai]

We know that the tulip is the flower of the Calvinist and that the daisy is the flower of the Arminian he loves me, he loves me not..

 

[Barry Johnson]

“But as many as received him (passively, like a pat on the back), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12–13 (NCPB)

Yes we don't 'birth ' ourselves. This is a work of God . We do not have the supernatural ability to baptise ourselves into the Body of Christ..The Holy Spirit does this ..We don't have the same ability as the Holy Spirit. We are human . After we Believe God does the work .

 

[Barry Johnson]

We know that the tulip is the flower of the Calvinist and that the daisy is the flower of the Arminian he loves me, he loves me not..

lovely flowers but bad theology .

 

[Barry Johnson]

“But as many as received him (passively, like a pat on the back), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12–13 (NCPB)

But as many as recieved him ( as the verse stands )

 

[George Antonios]

We know that the tulip is the flower of the Calvinist and that the daisy is the flower of the Arminian he loves me, he loves me not..

You're off on your own man. I have no idea what you think I believe and you won't answer seriously.

 

[Barry Johnson]

“But as many as received him (passively, like a pat on the back), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12–13 (NCPB)

God gives the power . simple

 

[Barry Johnson]

“But as many as received him (passively, like a pat on the back), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” John 1:12–13 (NCPB)

'like a pat on the back '? isn't that deserved or merited ..I thought it was unconditional election ?

 

[Dave G]

To access this salvation is through Faith . simple .

I'm sorry, Barry, I have to disagree with you.
To me, faith is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ), not the means.

To make faith into a work that we do in order to obligated God into saving us, is still works from my perspective.
Salvation is a gift, not a reward for good works.

In addition, I don't see you explaining why some believe and why others do not access this salvation by faith, when I see the Scriptures telling me why..
Can you point me to the Scriptures that give us this answer?

What you need to ask yourself is ,how does salvation work ?

I've already done that Barry.

And what are the components of salvation .

What "components"?
What God "requires" to be saved?

What Jesus did and how does it apply . Were Justified by His blood ,but we were not justified when he Bled .

Again, I'm sorry Barry, we'll have to disagree.

I'll give you one more example in the hope that perhaps this may shed some light on what I see when I read the Scriptures.
Take Romans 8:29-30:

" For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Here's what I see when I reads this:

1) For whom He foreknew...that's individuals, not a "corporate body".
2) Those that were foreknown are predestinated, called, justified and glorified.
3) No one outside of this process can enjoy any of the benefits of the rest, because it is clearly stated " For whom He did foreknow, He..." did all these things.

One of those things is justfication, or being made just in the eyes of God.
We know from the scriptures that justification only happens for those who have believed, for those who are the elect:

" Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [It is] God that justifieth." ( Romans 8:33 ).

Therefore, being justified freely through the blood of Christ only applies to the believer.
Therefore, it is still "limited" no matter how one looks at it.

 

[George Antonios]

To me, faith is the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ), not the means.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

That's "means" if I ever saw it.

 

[Dave G]

You and Calvernists are under the illusion that Jesus death saves . Or that salvation is secured on the cross .

Barry,

You have the right to put me in whatever category you wish, but I'm not a Calvinist.
Calvinists are people who believe and teach every single thing that a mere man, John Calvin, believed and taught about the Bible.
A good example to relate this principle to, would be the terms, "Wesleyan", or "Lutheran".

Secondly, people like me are not under the impression that Jesus death is what saves.
We are under the belief that God the Father chose a people, gave His Son for them, and Christ came to fulfill the Law and submit Himself to the actions of wicked men in order to complete the mission that His Father gave Him...

To take out of the nations a people for His name's sake;
A people zealous of good works and who love Him from the heart.

His children were reconciled to Him by the death of His Son.
This means that when Christ was on the cross, He had on His mind the names of all His sheep, and that is who He died for.
His suffering, death and rising again did not, nor will it ever, secure the salvation of anyone outside of those whose names were written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world ( Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8 ).

In other words, we are under the firm conviction that the work that He did on the cross and during His life, was for His sheep and only for His sheep.
Salvation for them was and is not a "potential", but a sure and actual work on the cross.
When His work for them was at an end, Christ said, "It is finished".


The promise of eternal life was secured, on the cross, when the believer's sins were nailed to it with Him.
Those sins were laid upon Him...
Not the sins of all mankind.
If they were, then even unbelievers would have nothing to answer for.

Forgiveness of sins is directly related to Christ's death on the cross.
It does not come when we have believed, but rather before that.

Therefore, the Gospel, in its entirety, is every piece of truth about how and why God saves anyone, and all the things that were accomplished for them.

Regrettably, I'm sorry that you and I do not see these things eye to eye, Barry.
I hope someday that that changes.


May God bless you sir.

 

[Dave G]

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

That's "means" if I ever saw it.

George,
That says, "through faith", not "by faith".


Definition of 'through':
" from beginning to end of (an experience or activity, typically a tedious or stressful one)."

Do you see the difference?
If salvation were by faith, then I would agree with you in this instance.
But the Scriptures do not say, "we are saved by our faith".

I see that we as believers do many things by faith, but gaining God's favor is not one of them.

This is where I see the legal language of the Scriptures making all the difference.
Can you find anywhere in God's word that eternal life is said to be gained by faith?

If so, please post it.

In the interim, I also clearly see that eternal life is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).
If it were gained by an act of faith, then shouldn't the Scriptures say that it is a reward?

 

[Sai]

You're off on your own man. I have no idea what you think I believe and you won't answer seriously.

If a person believes they can lose their salvation, then they are working for it.