God and TIME

[Jarthur001]

Bob,

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

This is the verse...

Now being we are saved by Hope and "faith" is the substance of thing hoped for then its "faith" we are saved then God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

This is your words....


Notice foreknow is not in the verse.
Notice predestined is not in the verse.

But..being that you bring this up a lot...lets look at it.

[to be] conformed 4832... summorphos...having the same form as another

lets write it out as we go.

so not changing the context we can write..."predestined to have the same form as" ...

to the image 1504...eikon.....Image

so not changing the context we can write...predestined to have the same form as the image

of his 846...autos....His

so not changing the context we can write...predestined to have the same form as the image of God

Son 5207, ....huios..son of man..

so not changing the context we can write...predestined to have the same form as the image of God's Son

Therefore not changing the context we can write...We are "predestined to have the same form as the image of God's Son".

Who can be just like ....in the same form.....be the very likeness of Gods Son?
The elect or the non elect?

Now that addresses your line from romans 8. I now need to support this view if I can from other verse. Notice the context above is not changed..and the following verses will support the context.

"My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you..." (Gal. 4:19)...in this verse it is the elect.

"are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory" (2 Cor. 3:18)...in this verse it is the elect.

Therefore..it is fair to read..and not change the context

"The elect was predestined to have the same form as the image of God's Son"

Now when was this done? Again..lets look at context.

The full context is verse 29 of romans 8

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

according to this verse...it was in the past..."Foreknow". God does not work in time. Well...He wants us to believe this is in the past, or He would not have said it. Do you believe God wanted "fore" to be in the Bible to show us ...or even make us think it was in the past? Or..do you think God made a mistake here and is trying to confuse us?

But why did God predestinate us? Does Know in foreknow mean He choose us because He knew we would believe..or does it mean He knows all things? Well...again...lets look at the context. Notice it never says anything about believeing here. This is about election. Now in other places where it talks about faith..it does say one must believe. In those places..it says nothing about election..does it? So...why?

Notice the 1st one in verse 29. "For"
You have heard this a 1000 times. When you see the word for...look back to see what its there for. Anytime you see "for" at the start of a verse...it is linked to the verse right before it. Lets look at verse 28 to see why.

28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

So..going by context...the meaning is now clear and can be read...

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

and your verse...

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

is talking about the faith that the elect must have to be saved and not about foreknowing. The word is not even in the verse.

 

[Jarthur001]

Is Christ God?

yes He is God.

 

[Jarthur001]

To us? Yes.

Since we are bound by time, no.

Within time? No. Outside of it? Who knows.

Hello Webdog...

When God choose to use the word "Foreknow" in the Bible..what time frame do you feel He wanted us to believe this took place?

NOW?

The future?

The past?

Was He trying to trick us into thinking this took place in the past...or do you think He really wanted us to believe it took place in the past, because it did?
Do you think the tense "fore" the closes He could come to our understanding?...or should God have used another word?

 

[npetreley]

Was He trying to trick us into thinking this took place in the past...or do you think He really wanted us to believe it took place in the past, because it did?

Do you think the tense "fore" the closes He could come to our understanding?...or should God have used another word?

LOL. I think that sums up the problem pretty well.

 

[Brother Bob]

aw, thank you James for writing that out as we go. Reminds me of the old school days when the teachers all had an 8th grade education.

is talking about the faith that the elect must have to be saved and not about foreknowing. The word is not even in the verse.

No but "HOPE" is in the Chapter just before this foreknew starts and HOPE is (Faith is the substance) in other words what something is, (Faith is the substance of things HOPED for) So we see our HOPE is made up of our FAITH of which you so conveintly want to leave out of all the Scriptures and I don't know why if you want the truth.

Now "FOREKNEW" God sees us believe so HE FOREKNOWS who the believers are you do understand that is FOREKNEW before Salvation don't you? If He see us BELIEVE that is FOREKNEW before He predestinates us to be conformed to the image of His Son, If He saw us BELIEVE you do know that is FOREKNEW before predestination don't you? Then, He calls us, of course you know He FOREKNEW us beleive before He calls us don't you, then He GLORIFIES us and even you have to say "well that is yet to come" so again, He FOREKNEW us before He GLORIFIES us.

Again, Calvinist have to leave out BELIEF/FAITH or HOPE in this case which is made up of FAITH.

We don't have to leave out nothing.

If I saw you praying and shedding tears and crying to God before you came to me and said you felt God had forgive you. Then I think you could call it I FOREKNEW that you were in trouble over your sins.

If God see us BELIEVE in Him, then I think we could say he FOREKNEW us before Salvation, so He knew who to make Christ like, or predestinate.

But, God also sees all, FORE, NOW, and even you say in Glorified AFTER. You want to use AFTER when it comes to GLORIFIED, but not the FORE when it comes to BELIEF.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Brother Bob]

Did God learn something new when He saw who believed? Did God "predestinate" people based on new information He obtained when He saw who would believe?

How could He learn something "new" when He sees from the beginning who believes, He sees now who believes and He sees in the end who believes. How could it be knew to Him? Do you believe God sees how you will die and when?

So, you apparently saying that God Foreknew who believes.
If you believe that God Foreknew the saved then why is it so hard to believe that God Foreknew who believes that Jesus is the Son of God, then calls, predestinates, justifies, glorifies. What is the problem? Why do the Calvinist want to leave out "believe"? Calvinist sure must have a huge problem reading all the rest of the Bible outside of a few verses in Romans and Ephesians when they read all about "thy faith hath saved thee", "thy faith hath made thee whole", "believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". "preach the gospel to every creature and he that believeth shall be saved" on and on through the whole Bible. What must bother them the most is when Jesus says it for "Salvation belongs to Jesus" and he says "you must believe to be saved". amazing

 

[Brother Bob]

Is Christ work on the cross bound by time?


Your friend say God can go back in time..and go forward. Can He?

There is no backward or forward with God.

You say and want us to believe that God looked in the future and saw His Son die but He sees Him as slain before the world then why could He not see Him slain now? What would be the difference. You want a FORE but not an AFTER. That is foolish. You want a timeless God before but you don't want a timeless God AFTER. lol

Matter of fact, You have to have a timeless God FORE but when it comes to AFTER you find fault. ha

Do you believe in a non all knowing God James? Do you think God works in the blind?

Did God see His son slain before the foundation of the world James? Must of been timeless then but not now?

 

[Jarthur001]

There is no backward or forward with God.

You say and want us to believe that God looked in the future and saw His Son die but He sees Him as slain before the world then why could He not see Him slain now? What would be the difference. You want a FORE but not an AFTER. That is foolish. You want a timeless God before but you don't want a timeless God AFTER. lol

Matter of fact, You have to have a timeless God FORE but when it comes to AFTER you find fault. ha

Do you believe in a non all knowing God James? Do you think God works in the blind?

Did God see His son slain before the foundation of the world James? Must of been timeless then but not now?

You are wrong. I say God is not bound just to time. But when God WORKS with man, He also works in time. Notice I always say God or Christ work can not be changed, for it is locked in time. God works in time when He works with Man, for man is matter and is part of time. God can also go beyond time.

God elected in the past...and in each context where election is talked about...it always...each and every time...talks that God does this because of His pleasure. Even though you hate it Bob, fore is placed there to show it was done before you were born.

If God did not want us to think it was in the past, why would he say past?

In other words...the verse could have said..

In whom he knew.....He also elected.

In Romans 9, This is why God choose the 2nd son over the 1st son. It would have been easy to choose the 1st son, for in all familys the 1st son got the blessings. Yet God choose the 2nd son....why? Because He wanted to prove election. This is what the context says. This is what each context says....when election is talked about. You can't change that, no matter how many times you try Bob.

Did God know? Yes He knew, but this was not the reason for His choice. Each time...each and every time...it says it is because of His pleasure. Why do you want to deny God that? You picked your wife to marry.

This is it Bob....

Forget everything I said above.

Forget months of verses posted..........just anwser this.


Can God choose His own bride according to His own pleasure just as the Bible says? yes...no?

I'm glad God choose me before I was born, other wise He would have never choose me. (J Vernon McGhee)

You say and want us to believe that God looked in the future and saw His Son die but He sees Him as slain before the world then why could He not see Him slain now?

Wrong..
It has nothing to do with God looking...you can't seem to "see" this. Your saying...God only picks people that love Him. God picked Paul, who was killing believers.

God picks not because we loved Him....He picked us even though we didn't love Him. This is grace. Gods decree made it happen and now it can not be changed for it is of God and by God.

 

[Brother Bob]

You are wrong. I say God is not bound just to time. But when God WORKS with man, He also works in time. Notice I always say God or Christ work can not be changed, for it is locked in time. God works in time when He works with Man, for man is matter and is part of time. God can also go beyond time.

Time is for man and God is not bound by it. You say it is locked in time but I say it is locked in everlasting to everlasting. Don’t you believe God is everlasting to everlasting or is He a time God and locked there. You do not grasp that God can see all in all. He said I am that I am. You will admit that God was not locked in time when He saw His Son die before the foundation of the world. You will admit that God is not locked in time when He foreknew you. You just fail to see that if He foreknew you He foreknew that you believed and chose Him. That is where you err James. You want Him to foreknow some things but not all.

God elected in the past...and in each context where election is talked about...it always...each and every time...talks that God does this because of His pleasure. Even though you hate it Bob, fore is placed there to show it was done before you were born.

Sure it was to His pleasure when He sees us believe and choose Him. You say in the past and again I say He is everlasting to everlasting of which you seem to be changing God to fit your theory.

If God did not want us to think it was in the past, why would he say past?

In other words...the verse could have said..

In whom he knew.....He also elected.

In Romans 9, This is why God choose the 2nd son over the 1st son. It would have been easy to choose the 1st son, for in all familys the 1st son got the blessings. Yet God choose the 2nd son....why? Because He wanted to prove election. This is what the context says. This is what each context says....when election is talked about. You can't change that, no matter how many times you try Bob.

Did God know? Yes He knew, but this was not the reason for His choice. Each time...each and every time...it says it is because of His pleasure. Why do you want to deny God that? You picked your wife to marry.

This is it Bob....

The Scriptures were written for our learning, not Gods!! He already knows all things why would it have to be written past, now or future for God when He is everlasting to everlasting.
Easy to choose the first son? Yes, but God sees and He sees Esau sell his birthright before he was born so He said the elder shall serve the younger. God knows all. The difference between you and me James is that I believe in an "all knowing God".
It pleased Him to pick the one who did not sell his birthright, why can’t you see that James?

Can God choose His own bride according to His own pleasure just as the Bible says? yes...no?

Not only can He choose His bride He did choose His bride and He chose the believers. New Jerusalem is the believers in Christ.

It has nothing to do with God looking...you can't seem to "see" this. Your saying...God only picks people that love Him. God picked Paul, who was killing believers.

God picks not because we loved Him....He picked us even though we didn't love Him. This is grace. Gods decree made it happen and now it can not be changed for it is of God and by God.

Oh, but Paul was one of the Apostles of whom Jesus chose them all to fulfill His plan. Paul was a chosen vessel to preach to the Gentile nation. God also chose Judas so His plan could be fulfilled, but He chose Judas because He sees what Judas is: the son of perdition.
peace

 

[tinytim]

Did God learn something new when He saw who believed? Did God "predestinate" people based on new information He obtained when He saw who would believe?

peace to youraying:

Without the concept of time, you cannot have anything new, because there would be nothing old. So no, God did not learn something new. Everything is as everything is.

 

[saturneptune]

Arthur,
You seem to have take great delight in word games. Bob is right. God is outside time. That is something He created. He sees it all at once. You asked, can Christ, God travel in time. He is God. If He needed to and was in His nature, I suppose He would.

We all here know Christ died once. We all know He will not do it again. The senerio of Christ going back in time to watch Himself crucified is nonsense, and to tell you the truth, I fail to see the edification of the subject or teaching. Maybe you should tune in to the Sci-Fi Channel.

 

[webdog]

Hello Webdog...

When God choose to use the word "Foreknow" in the Bible..what time frame do you feel He wanted us to believe this took place?

NOW?

The future?

The past?

Was He trying to trick us into thinking this took place in the past...or do you think He really wanted us to believe it took place in the past, because it did?
Do you think the tense "fore" the closes He could come to our understanding?...or should God have used another word?

Does the word foreknow mean the same thing to us as it does to God? To us it means "know something beforehand"...which is a human statement given within time. You say God is not bound by time. Can God foreknow something, in the sense of time as we know it? If you say yes, He's not omniscient. To branch off even further, how does foreknow fit into God's omniscience? Think about it.

 

[canadyjd]

"Foreknow" is referring to "relationship", not "information". Relationship is a legitimate understanding for this word.

Look at all the "relationship" language of Romans 8.

v.28 "we know all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose".

v.29 "firstborn among many brethren"

v.31 "If God is for us, who is against us"

v.32 "freely gives us all things"

v.33 "Who will bring a charge against God's elect"

v.34 "Christ Jesus....intercedes for us."

v.35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ"

v.37 "But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us."

v.38-39 nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing, can "separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Over and over Paul emphasizes the believer's relationship with God. "Foreknew" is another example of that. God "foreknew" us in an intimate relationship before the foundation of the world, and then predestined, called, justified, etc.
peace to you:wavey:

 

[El_Guero]

He is timeless, or from our point of view (POV), He is outside of time.

I am stating this thread for a few reasons.

I have just undertaken this subject on my own and with great joy to my heart God flowed his understanding toward me in such a way, it was hard to write as fast as it came. This may have been the quickest studies I have done. I have changed a few things in my understanding of time and God too. So now I would like to address the subject.


1) There has been a mis-use of the phrase.."God is timeless". Is it wrong to say this?

2) Does God work in what we know as time?

3) Is there a past...to God?, or is everything just "Now" to Him as some would have it.

4) Being this is why people use the "NOW" idea, I need to ask....When God uses the word "foreknow" what does this mean?



Thank you for your input.


In Christ..James

 

[El_Guero]

Yes, God's use of the word forknowledge was referring to His use of the word relationship, but how does that allow you to a legal 'understanding' of the word 'relationship'?

I think that definition is 'Greek to me'.

"Foreknow" is referring to "relationship", not "information". Relationship is a legitimate understanding for this word.

Look at all the "relationship" language of Romans 8.

v.28 "we know all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose".

v.29 "firstborn among many brethren"

v.31 "If God is for us, who is against us"

v.32 "freely gives us all things"

v.33 "Who will bring a charge against God's elect"

v.34 "Christ Jesus....intercedes for us."

v.35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ"

v.37 "But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us."

v.38-39 nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing, can "separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Over and over Paul emphasizes the believer's relationship with God. "Foreknew" is another example of that. God "foreknew" us in an intimate relationship before the foundation of the world, and then predestined, called, justified, etc.
peace to you:wavey:

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by canadyjd
Did God learn something new when He saw who believed? Did God "predestinate" people based on new information He obtained when He saw who would believe?

Thats the whole point, No He didn't learn anything new. He sees it all at once how could He learn anything new when its all at once.

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, God's use of the word forknowledge was referring to His use of the word relationship, but how does that allow you to a legal 'understanding' of the word 'relationship'?

I think that definition is 'Greek to me'.

From my "lexical aids to the New Testament":

"Thus, proginosko, foreknow,...essentially includes a self-determining on God's part to this fellowship of Himself with the believers (Rom. 8:29) with whom God had beforehand entered into fellowship."

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

[/i]
Thats the whole point, No He didn't learn anything new. He sees it all at once how could He learn anything new when its all at once.

Of course it is BBob. But there are those who maintain that God "saw" who would accept Christ, and then determined to "elect" them to salvation based on what they will do.

That makes God respond to the righteous acts of men, instead of men responding to the Grace of God revealed in Christ.

peace to youraying:

 

[Brother Bob]

Of course it is BBob. But there are those who maintain that God "saw" who would accept Christ, and then determined to "elect" them to salvation based on what they will do.

Sorry Canady but you still misunderstand me for when I say He sees, I mean He sees you believe not looks ahead and sees you believe but He sees all at once so He sees you believe, He predestinates, He calls, He justifies, He glorifies. The whole Bible is about "believing".

 

[canadyjd]

Sorry Canady but you still misunderstand me for when I say He sees, I mean He sees you believe not looks ahead and sees you believe but He sees all at once so He sees you believe, He predestinates, He calls, He justifies, He glorifies. The whole Bible is about "believing".

And I say that not only does He see us believe, but He is the cause of our belief through Holy Spirit changing our natures, convicting us of the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, leading us to repentence and faith, and preserving us in His power. All of this according to the kind intention of His will, and according to His having a relationship with us before the foundation of the world.

peace to youraying: