God and TIME

LOL. I think that sums up the problem pretty well.

 

aw, thank you James for writing that out as we go. Reminds me of the old school days when the teachers all had an 8th grade education.

No but "HOPE" is in the Chapter just before this foreknew starts and HOPE is (Faith is the substance) in other words what something is, (Faith is the substance of things HOPED for) So we see our HOPE is made up of our FAITH of which you so conveintly want to leave out of all the Scriptures and I don't know why if you want the truth.

Now "FOREKNEW" God sees us believe so HE FOREKNOWS who the believers are you do understand that is FOREKNEW before Salvation don't you? If He see us BELIEVE that is FOREKNEW before He predestinates us to be conformed to the image of His Son, If He saw us BELIEVE you do know that is FOREKNEW before predestination don't you? Then, He calls us, of course you know He FOREKNEW us beleive before He calls us don't you, then He GLORIFIES us and even you have to say "well that is yet to come" so again, He FOREKNEW us before He GLORIFIES us.

Again, Calvinist have to leave out BELIEF/FAITH or HOPE in this case which is made up of FAITH.

We don't have to leave out nothing.

If I saw you praying and shedding tears and crying to God before you came to me and said you felt God had forgive you. Then I think you could call it I FOREKNEW that you were in trouble over your sins.

If God see us BELIEVE in Him, then I think we could say he FOREKNEW us before Salvation, so He knew who to make Christ like, or predestinate.

But, God also sees all, FORE, NOW, and even you say in Glorified AFTER. You want to use AFTER when it comes to GLORIFIED, but not the FORE when it comes to BELIEF.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

How could He learn something "new" when He sees from the beginning who believes, He sees now who believes and He sees in the end who believes. How could it be knew to Him? Do you believe God sees how you will die and when?

So, you apparently saying that God Foreknew who believes.
If you believe that God Foreknew the saved then why is it so hard to believe that God Foreknew who believes that Jesus is the Son of God, then calls, predestinates, justifies, glorifies. What is the problem? Why do the Calvinist want to leave out "believe"? Calvinist sure must have a huge problem reading all the rest of the Bible outside of a few verses in Romans and Ephesians when they read all about "thy faith hath saved thee", "thy faith hath made thee whole", "believe in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved". "preach the gospel to every creature and he that believeth shall be saved" on and on through the whole Bible. What must bother them the most is when Jesus says it for "Salvation belongs to Jesus" and he says "you must believe to be saved". amazing

 

There is no backward or forward with God.

You say and want us to believe that God looked in the future and saw His Son die but He sees Him as slain before the world then why could He not see Him slain now? What would be the difference. You want a FORE but not an AFTER. That is foolish. You want a timeless God before but you don't want a timeless God AFTER. lol

Matter of fact, You have to have a timeless God FORE but when it comes to AFTER you find fault. ha

Do you believe in a non all knowing God James? Do you think God works in the blind?

Did God see His son slain before the foundation of the world James? Must of been timeless then but not now?

 

Time is for man and God is not bound by it. You say it is locked in time but I say it is locked in everlasting to everlasting. Don’t you believe God is everlasting to everlasting or is He a time God and locked there. You do not grasp that God can see all in all. He said I am that I am. You will admit that God was not locked in time when He saw His Son die before the foundation of the world. You will admit that God is not locked in time when He foreknew you. You just fail to see that if He foreknew you He foreknew that you believed and chose Him. That is where you err James. You want Him to foreknow some things but not all.

Sure it was to His pleasure when He sees us believe and choose Him. You say in the past and again I say He is everlasting to everlasting of which you seem to be changing God to fit your theory.

The Scriptures were written for our learning, not Gods!! He already knows all things why would it have to be written past, now or future for God when He is everlasting to everlasting.
Easy to choose the first son? Yes, but God sees and He sees Esau sell his birthright before he was born so He said the elder shall serve the younger. God knows all. The difference between you and me James is that I believe in an "all knowing God".
It pleased Him to pick the one who did not sell his birthright, why can’t you see that James?

Not only can He choose His bride He did choose His bride and He chose the believers. New Jerusalem is the believers in Christ.

Oh, but Paul was one of the Apostles of whom Jesus chose them all to fulfill His plan. Paul was a chosen vessel to preach to the Gentile nation. God also chose Judas so His plan could be fulfilled, but He chose Judas because He sees what Judas is: the son of perdition.
peace

 

Without the concept of time, you cannot have anything new, because there would be nothing old. So no, God did not learn something new. Everything is as everything is.

 

Arthur,
You seem to have take great delight in word games. Bob is right. God is outside time. That is something He created. He sees it all at once. You asked, can Christ, God travel in time. He is God. If He needed to and was in His nature, I suppose He would.

We all here know Christ died once. We all know He will not do it again. The senerio of Christ going back in time to watch Himself crucified is nonsense, and to tell you the truth, I fail to see the edification of the subject or teaching. Maybe you should tune in to the Sci-Fi Channel.

 

Does the word foreknow mean the same thing to us as it does to God? To us it means "know something beforehand"...which is a human statement given within time. You say God is not bound by time. Can God foreknow something, in the sense of time as we know it? If you say yes, He's not omniscient. To branch off even further, how does foreknow fit into God's omniscience? Think about it.

 

"Foreknow" is referring to "relationship", not "information". Relationship is a legitimate understanding for this word.

Look at all the "relationship" language of Romans 8.

v.28 "we know all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose".

v.29 "firstborn among many brethren"

v.31 "If God is for us, who is against us"

v.32 "freely gives us all things"

v.33 "Who will bring a charge against God's elect"

v.34 "Christ Jesus....intercedes for us."

v.35 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ"

v.37 "But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us."

v.38-39 nothing, nothing, absolutely nothing, can "separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Over and over Paul emphasizes the believer's relationship with God. "Foreknew" is another example of that. God "foreknew" us in an intimate relationship before the foundation of the world, and then predestined, called, justified, etc.
peace to you:wavey:

 

He is timeless, or from our point of view (POV), He is outside of time.

 

Yes, God's use of the word forknowledge was referring to His use of the word relationship, but how does that allow you to a legal 'understanding' of the word 'relationship'?

I think that definition is 'Greek to me'.

 

Thats the whole point, No He didn't learn anything new. He sees it all at once how could He learn anything new when its all at once.

 

From my "lexical aids to the New Testament":

"Thus, proginosko, foreknow,...essentially includes a self-determining on God's part to this fellowship of Himself with the believers (Rom. 8:29) with whom God had beforehand entered into fellowship."

peace to youraying:

 

Of course it is BBob. But there are those who maintain that God "saw" who would accept Christ, and then determined to "elect" them to salvation based on what they will do.

That makes God respond to the righteous acts of men, instead of men responding to the Grace of God revealed in Christ.

peace to youraying:

 

Sorry Canady but you still misunderstand me for when I say He sees, I mean He sees you believe not looks ahead and sees you believe but He sees all at once so He sees you believe, He predestinates, He calls, He justifies, He glorifies. The whole Bible is about "believing".

 

And I say that not only does He see us believe, but He is the cause of our belief through Holy Spirit changing our natures, convicting us of the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, leading us to repentence and faith, and preserving us in His power. All of this according to the kind intention of His will, and according to His having a relationship with us before the foundation of the world.

peace to youraying: