God commands disobedience to his word

[dad1]

How do you know God wasn't guiding the church councils that approved of those images? The word of God is not limited to scripture by the way.

How do you know the bank of Hong Kong was not inspired in picking an interest rate?

 

[dad1]

Certainly not!

A one time event does not make the rule.

Graven images are used by the RCC. You can't call them anything else.

I don't approve of any images:
our Baptist Church has none; no interior or exterior Crosses, either!
(Christ is Risen--why the need for a Cross?).

The Scriptures are definitive: only Church Councils that embraced them
fully had God's Approval.

Ok. But probably some might suggest that it does.


Second Baptist Church World War II Memorial



http://www.worldwar1luton.com/sites...jects/Park St Bapt memorial.png?itok=r0yQ-w63



The pastor drives a Jaguar

Even a coin has an image craven on it! Ha.

 

[BobRyan]

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

The prohibition here is not the making of the graven image, it is the bowing before them and worshipping them.

Moses made the brazen serpent in obedience to God’s command. He did not, as did Aaron(Ex. 32), make the graven image to be worshipped.

This is a good point.

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them"

Israel was never told to bow down to any image and was never told to "serve" the image or the one that is depicted by the image.

There were images of Angels for example on the Ark of the Covenant - yet no command to bow down to them nor to promise to serve the Angels that they represent.

God killed all mankind at the flood... men, women and little children... yet never commanded man to do it.

God killed all the first born in Egypt - His destroying angel sent to do that.

God told Israel before their rebellion against Him that He would drive out the inhabitants instead of having them do it - but after their rebellion Israel was given the command to cast out the heathen tribes that it displaced and in a few cases to exterminate a certain group.

The OP suggests a "discard the Bible" scenario which we had tons of during the dark ages and we can all see how well that went.

===========================

So, if a church does something that the Bible says not to do, who knows if it was actually inspired by God? Since God has a reputation for commanding people to go against his word, I wouldn't put it past him to be responsible for the decisions of church councils

The Bible alone Doctrine is built on a premise that blows itself up! The Bible alone is all that is needed to prove that the Bible alone is not the sole rule of sacred theology! Ouch!

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul - were SO"

Gal 1:6-9 "if WE APOSTLES or an ANGEL from heaven should preach to you a different Gospel other than that which has been given - let him be accursed"

Mark 7:6-13 Christ hammers the Church magisterium of His day - Sola Scriptura
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

=================

Bottom line. We had enough of the dark ages. That ship has sailed.

 

[BobRyan]

It is very biblical that the way God acts one time in history, he can act totally different another time in history... We have a new covenant. Some of what was formerly forbidden is now permitted. God knew that Catholics would become the largest Christian denomination and to be the only denomination for centuries. God knew they would have crucifixes statues and pray to Mary. Yet Jesus never said this bothered him. neither did the other authors of the New Testament. It clearly was not an important issue to them.

Jesus specifically speaks in the book of Revelation - and there the rise of the Catholic Church is predicted as well as the 1260 years of persecution of the saints that it would cause as see in Rev 12, and again described in Rev 17. It was also predicted in Daniel 7 and 8. Future end times predictions in the Bible focused a huge amount of detail on the rise and reign of the Catholic church.

 

[utilyan]

Were there any unicorns involved?

Job 39

9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

10Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?

11Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?

12Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?


Psalm 92

10But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.


They also got leviathans and dragons too.

 

[Mr. Davis]

How do you know God wasn't guiding the church councils that approved of those images? The word of God is not limited to scripture by the way.

What if we hadn't had the Council of Trent?

They needed God's guidance to select those books that would make up the Catholic Bible.

Please answer these questions:

"The word of God is not limited to scripture."
What is another source?

Does God sometimes command disobedience in
Holy Tradition?

My position on "images" has already been made clear.

 

[Matt Janes]

Job 39

9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?

10Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?

11Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?

12Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?


Psalm 92

10But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.


They also got leviathans and dragons too.

The other source of God's word is the Holy Spirit.... A relationship with the Holy Spirit is more important than knowledge of scripture.... Scripture has a lot of verses that lead people to opposite opinions. For instance, scripture says Moses interacted with God face to face, and then says no one has interacted with God face to face. Scripture says no one ascended into heaven but Christ, but scripture also says Enoch and Elijah ascended into heaven

 

[utilyan]

What if we hadn't had the Council of Trent?

They needed God's guidance to select those books that would make up the Catholic Bible.

Please answer these questions:

"The word of God is not limited to scripture."
What is another source?

Does God sometimes command disobedience in
Holy Tradition?

My position on "images" has already been made clear.

Baptism and Communion is a example. It was done before the bible was written and the motivation for doing it was not a written motivation.

It is still being done today on its own tradition. I don't have to open a bible to verify if Communion is Legit. It is auto legit.

It is the "SCRIPTURE" Jesus Christ wrote himself. The his chosen means of communication, grammar and vocabulary, Is bread and wine and people.

You PERSONALLY might not agree with the RELIABILITY of the TOOLS Jesus Christ chose to have his communication delivered. For some a phone call is better, Email, PAPER and INK, Stone, English language, sign language, movie picture, DVD, books.

Your opinion might be Ink and Paper is superior to all, That ink and paper is more reliable then people, Just like one believes a battle tank is probably more reliable for killing a Giant then some Sheppard child.

The choices are countless. And God has knack for picking out the most unqualified underdog to pull the best upset.

Jesus Christ chose, BREAD, WINE, and People. And his choice tools are GOD-BREATHED, he breathed on them the holy spirit.


1 Corinthians 11

23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

Here Paul tells us he received from Jesus something he is passing down to them. Its a not a bible with this bible passage. The passage is only reporting what. He is giving communion right there.

It solely hangs on the command of Jesus Christ, "DO THIS".


If someone opens up a bible find this and says "oh hey guys we need to do that", NOPE doesn't count, that is not his DO THIS that is DO THAT. They already gave you the clue how they recieve and deliver.

It is the same ON going command and unbroken chain of Jesus Christ.

 

[dad1]

Jesus specifically speaks in the book of Revelation - and there the rise of the Catholic Church is predicted as well as the 1260 years of persecution of the saint.

So 1260 days is now years in your world?

 

[BobRyan]

So 1260 days is now years in your world?

In the world of Daniel 9 490 days is 490 years (70 weeks...490 days... 490 years)

All apocalyptic timelines use day for year ... that includes the 1260 day-for-years of Daniel 7 predicting the dark ages, the 2300 day-for-years of Daniel 8, the 490 day-for-years of Daniel 9, the 1260 day-for-years (predicting the dark ages) of Rev 11, and Rev 12, and Rev 13.

It is consistent throughout.

Turns out - the dark ages take up a huge amount of real estate in Christian history.

 

[dad1]

In the world of Daniel 9 490 days is 490 years (70 weeks...490 days... 490 years)

All apocalyptic timelines use day for year ... that includes the 1260 day-for-years of Daniel 7 predicting the dark ages, the 2300 day-for-years of Daniel 8, the 490 day-for-years of Daniel 9, the 1260 day-for-years (predicting the dark ages) of Rev 11, and Rev 12, and Rev 13.

It is consistent throughout.

Turns out - the dark ages take up a huge amount of real estate in Christian history.

No. Actually the weeks in Daniel were groups of years. One could cross check this by looking at the length of the part of the tribulation period given in years and days in Revelation. Another way might be to look at the length of the covenant that the AC breaks in the middle (3 1/2 years). The covenant was for one week, or seven years (Daniel 9:27) In Revelation we get the days and weeks from the time the AC breaks the covenant in the midst of the week. One cannot say that this one week covenant was anything other than a seven year covenant. The 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are groups of seven year 'weeks'. or 'sevens'.

 

[Adonia]

Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

Then just about everything that St. Paul wrote should be discarded, as well as some of what Jesus said. Perhaps you would be more comfortable as a Hasidic Jew?

 

[Adonia]

Here Paul tells us he received from Jesus something he is passing down to them. Its a not a bible with this bible passage. The passage is only reporting what. He is giving communion right there.

There you go making sense again.

 

[Adonia]

They needed God's guidance to select those books that would make up the Catholic Bible.

Yes, the Catholic Bible, the only Bible, the one that was in existence for over 1500 years until the heretic Luther came along and started tearing stuff out of it.

The word of God is not limited to scripture."
What is another source?

Preaching and teaching that is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Where was the NT Scriptures before St. Paul started preaching? Duh!

And then we have the authority of the Church, as exemplified by it's leaders, the Bishops of the Universal Church, the direct descendants of the Apostles. Yes it's true, this authority was indeed handed down to them through the ages.

"Listen to the Church" the Scriptures tell us! "He who hears you, hears me" they say!

 

[BobRyan]

In the world of Daniel 9 490 days is 490 years (70 weeks...490 days... 490 years)

All apocalyptic timelines use day for year ... that includes the 1260 day-for-years of Daniel 7 predicting the dark ages, the 2300 day-for-years of Daniel 8, the 490 day-for-years of Daniel 9, the 1260 day-for-years (predicting the dark ages) of Rev 11, and Rev 12, and Rev 13.

It is consistent throughout.

Turns out - the dark ages take up a huge amount of real estate in Christian history.

No.

yes.

Actually the weeks in Daniel were groups of years.
[/quotes]

That's happens with "weeks" when you use day-for-year.

One could cross check this by looking at the length of the part of the tribulation period given in years and days in Revelation. Another way might be to look at the length of the covenant that the AC breaks in the middle (3 1/2 years).

Rev 11, 12, 13 all use that same timeline 1260 years for the dark ages ... just as Daniel 7 does.

3.5 years = 42 months = 1260 days... and so Daniel 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13 are all pointing to that 1260 year period of persecution -- the dark ages.

The covenant was for one week, or seven years (Daniel 9:27)

[/quote]

True - one week of days is 7 days... day-for-year that is 7 years. The Messiah comes at the end of the 39 weeks -- 483 years from 457B.C Christ is baptized for ministry - anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism. 3.5 years later He is cut off - crucified.

At the end of that 490 year period in Dan 9 given as probation for Israel - they stone Stephen and then Saul-becomes-Paul and begins his ministry to the gentiles.

 

[BobRyan]

This is a good point.

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them"

Israel was never told to bow down to any image and was never told to "serve" the image or the one that is depicted by the image.

There were images of Angels for example on the Ark of the Covenant - yet no command to bow down to them nor to promise to serve the Angels that they represent.

God killed all mankind at the flood... men, women and little children... yet never commanded man to do it.

God killed all the first born in Egypt - His destroying angel sent to do that.

God told Israel before their rebellion against Him that He would drive out the inhabitants instead of having them do it - but after their rebellion Israel was given the command to cast out the heathen tribes that it displaced and in a few cases to exterminate a certain group.

The OP suggests a "discard the Bible" scenario which we had tons of during the dark ages and we can all see how well that went.

===========================



Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul - were SO"

Gal 1:6-9 "if WE APOSTLES or an ANGEL from heaven should preach to you a different Gospel other than that which has been given - let him be accursed"

Mark 7:6-13 Christ hammers the Church magisterium of His day - Sola Scriptura
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

=================

Bottom line. We had enough of the dark ages. That ship has sailed.

You responded to this part

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul - were SO"

Gal 1:6-9 "if WE APOSTLES or an ANGEL from heaven should preach to you a different Gospel other than that which has been given - let him be accursed"

Mark 7:6-13 Christ hammers the Church magisterium of His day - Sola Scriptura
6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Then just about everything that St. Paul wrote should be discarded, as well as some of what Jesus said. Perhaps you would be more comfortable as a Hasidic Jew?

I find your logic "illusive" given the text you are responding to

Is your debate "with the text" that overt??

 

[Mr. Davis]

Yes, the Catholic Bible, the only Bible, the one that was in existence for over 1500 years until the heretic Luther came along and started tearing stuff out of it.



Preaching and teaching that is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Where was the NT Scriptures before St. Paul started preaching? Duh!

And then we have the authority of the Church, as exemplified by it's leaders, the Bishops of the Universal Church, the direct descendants of the Apostles. Yes it's true, this authority was indeed handed down to them through the ages.

"Listen to the Church" the Scriptures tell us! "He who hears you, hears me" they say!

Church Mouse Guy wrote:

Pope Francis must be bananas. He just gave a high award to an abortion rights advocate. What will he do next?

"Pope Francis has conferred the title of “Commander of the Pontifical Equestrian Order of St. Gregory the Great” on Lilianne Ploumen, a Dutch politician and vocal agitator for abortion rights."

Pope Francis Honors Dutch Abortion Activist with Pontifical Medal of Knighthood

 

[dad1]

yes.



Rev 11, 12, 13 all use that same timeline 1260 years for the dark ages ... just as Daniel 7 does.

3.5 years = 42 months = 1260 days... and so Daniel 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13 are all pointing to that 1260 year period of persecution -- the dark ages.

True - one week of days is 7 days... day-for-year that is 7 years. The Messiah comes at the end of the 39 weeks -- 483 years from 457B.C Christ is baptized for ministry - anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism. 3.5 years later He is cut off - crucified.

At the end of that 490 year period in Dan 9 given as probation for Israel - they stone Stephen and then Saul-becomes-Paul and begins his ministry to the gentiles.

No.

I see no everlasting righteous brought to earth, do you?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

No way anyone could say all these things were done and complete yet.

 

[BobRyan]

No.

I see no everlasting righteous brought to earth, do you?

Depends on what you are looking for ... in that 490 year timeline Christ came and brought everlasting righteousness. Those who accept it can have it. That is the deal He brought.

1. all Apocalyptic time lines use day-for-year.
2. all Bible timelines are contiguous timelines. whether they are apocalyptic or not.

These two rules hold in all cases.

24 `Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies. Young's Literal Translation

seventy weeks. 490 days... 490 years. A contiguous timeline just as Dan 9 starts off with the 70 years of Jeremiah which is a contiguous timeline.

The probation for Israel was ended at the end of that 490 year timeline.
Christ brought everlasting righteousness
Christ ascended to heaven and began His Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary Heb 8:1-5
Christ caused sacrifices and offerings to cease - Hebrews 10:4-12

 

[dad1]

Depends on what you are looking for ... in that 490 year timeline Christ came and brought everlasting righteousness.

Hitler and Manson must have missed the memo?

Those who accept it can have it. That is the deal He brought.

1. all Apocalyptic time lines use day-for-year.

And they are arranged to the name of Santa also?

2. all Bible timelines are contiguous timelines. whether they are apocalyptic or not.

These two rules hold in all cases.

For those who made them up, maybe.

seventy weeks. 490 days... 490 years. A contiguous timeline just as Dan 9 starts off with the 70 years of Jeremiah which is a contiguous timeline.

Yet how long that last week is, we can see laid out in months or days elsewhere in the bible.

The probation for Israel was ended at the end of that 490 year timeline.

Was that the probation period mentioned in Baloney 4:6-8?

Christ brought everlasting righteousness

He will. Not yet for all the world. I guess you think the final ruler of the world or king mentioned will be a ruler of righteousness!?

Christ ascended to heaven and began His Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary Heb 8:1-5

Great...so? It is still only peace on earth to those of good will till He gets back!

Christ caused sacrifices and offerings to cease - Hebrews 10:4-12

Not the ones that result from a specific seven year covenant that will be broken by AntiChrist. In fact, there are no offering officially yet even, are there? How can they be stopped? You think Caesar gave everyone a mark on their heads or hands that lived on earth? I missed the history bit where Caesar was cast alive by Christ into the bottomless pit? How about the two witnesses of Rev 11, did all the world watch their bodies get risen from the dead on CNN in Jesus' day?