God Controls Hearts and Thoughts as He Says in His Word

[preacher4truth]

No, but there is not much difference between that and saying that God controls our thoughts or every thought, is there. We have to have the thoughts for him to control. And if he is as sovereign as you say he must be the author of our thoughts as well, if he controls them. Why would he control our thoughts if he didn't put them there?

You ask good questions DHK. And finally admit to putting and adding words to my quote. Heavens sakes, even Winman saw it.

God, does He allow us to have evil thoughts? Yes or no?

if He allows us to think evil thoughts, and doesn't intervene, then who exactly is in charge, since he is God?

Does He say in His word he controls thoughts, and turns even kings thoughts, the way he wants them to be turned, yes or no?

Does He cause us to desire the things He wills us to desire, Psalm 34:7/ Php. 2:13. Yes or no?

Does He ultimately allow Satan to give us wicked thoughts, or does Satan usurp God on that? Yes or no?

Can Gods plans be thwarted? Yes or no?

Also, I gave you other Scriptures, showing how even nations make counsels and plans, yet, He controls that and their outcome. Also, Scriptures in Proverbs teach us that we think thoughts, but that he ultimately leads and controls man.

As a matter of fact, our God is in control of everything. In fact, that is exactly what Sovereign means. Thus, I challenged your position that you say you believe God is Sovereign before, and I do not believe you truly think He is Sovereign, or in total control. I think you believe mans free will trumps that.

It's either God or man. And I guarantee you it isn't man.

Let's see if we can now get to step two without you twisting and wrangling and adding to my words. I do believe in miracles, by the way. raying:

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, when you say "God controls our thoughts", this naturally implies ALL of our thoughts. You should say God controls "some" of our thoughts. Be accurate.

God does not control our thoughts, though he certainly can convince (win over), persuade, or influence our thoughts. But what we think is always under our control.

Keep thinking bro.

He does control all of our thoughts:

He puts thoughts into us, to cause us to accomplish His will. (determinitive)

He allows us to think evil thoughts w/o intervention, accept back in Genesis where He did destroy man, putting an end to his continual wicked thoughts.
(permissive)

He allows us and asks us to think good thoughts, giving us the word in Php to empower us to do so "think on these things."

He allows Satan to cause us to have wicked thoughts, since Satan needs permission from God to do anything. So He controls this also.

We can also cast them down, returning out thoughts to godly, but only He gives that ability, so again, He is in control.

He is in control.

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, when you say "God controls our thoughts", this naturally implies ALL of our thoughts. You should say God controls "some" of our thoughts. Be accurate.

God does not control our thoughts, though he certainly can convince (win over), persuade, or influence our thoughts. But what we think is always under our control.

God does control all of our thoughts. I've shown that. You're still mixing up "puts every thought in our minds" with controls thoughts.

You also stated:

I don't believe it accurate to even say God "allows" us to think evil.

It's obvious He does. Have you ever thought an evil thought? Did God prevent this, or no?

 

[Winman]

And when I say it is not accurate to say God "allows" sin or evil thoughts, I will attempt to explain, but it is so foreign to Calvinistic thinking, I doubt you will be able to grasp it.

I believe sin is necessary.

God is perfectly righteous. He cannot do whatsoever, everything he does of necessity is right. God cannot lie, because that is unrighteous. There are some things it is actually impossible for God to do.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Do you agree that it is impossible for God to lie? Do you agree he is not able to lie?

Jesus said offences (sin) must needs be (is necessary) in Matt 18:7.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

God doesn't condone sin or will it, but offences or sin is necessary.

Why? Because God MUST give us free will. I believe it would be immoral to create men who are robots or puppets. Even man knows you cannot force someone to love you. This is why we arrest men for harrassing women, forcing them, or kidnapping persons.

God must be loving and therefore give us free choice to love and accept him, or hate and reject him.

This makes sin necessary. It cannot be prevented, it "must needs be".

To control persons is immoral, therefore God cannot do this. He can lovingly entice, persuade, convince, influence... but he cannot FORCE us because this is unrighteous.

I realize this is absolutely foreign to Calvinistic thought, but I believe it is true.

 

[preacher4truth]

And when I say it is not accurate to say God "allows" sin or evil thoughts, I will attempt to explain, but it is so foreign to Calvinistic thinking, I doubt you will be able to grasp it.

I believe sin is necessary.

God is perfectly righteous. He cannot do whatsoever, everything he does of necessity is right. God cannot lie, because that is unrighteous. There are some things it is actually impossible for God to do.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Do you argree that it is impossible for God to lie? Do you agree he is not able to lie?

Jesus said offences (sin) must needs be (is necessary) in Matt 18:7.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

God doesn't condone sin or wills it, offences or sin is necessary.

Why? Because God MUST give us free will. I believe it would be immoral to create men who are robots or puppets. Even man knows you cannot force someone to love you. This is why we arrest men for harrassing women, forcing them, or kidnapping persons.

God must be loving and therefore give us free choice to love and accept him, or hate and reject him.

This makes sin necessary. It cannot be prevented, it "must needs be".

To control persons is immoral, therefore God cannot do this. He can lovingly entice, persuade, convince, influence... but he cannot FORCE us because this is unrighteous.

I realize this is absolutely foreign to Calvinistic thought, but I believe it is true.

Enough with the I won't be able to grasp it. My 17 month old is reading Louis Berkhof and refuting your error as we speak. Hope you can take a joke. Now:

All of your argument, albeit very weak, supports the truth that God allows (permits) evil. Did He permit Satan to inflict evil upon Job? Yes or no?

I'll answer for you. "Yes."

Does this make Him sinful? No.

Even Job understood God allowed Satan to do this to him, ultimately saying "it was from the hand of God." Both good and evil. Yet in saying this Job did not sin by saying it, nor in saying it, did he charge God, foolishly. His lips were still pure.

Your free will nonsense has nothing to do with the immediate context of our debate.

Now, go get the immediate debate understood, then I will help you with the fallacy of free will.

You'll still love God after you understand you've been wrong all along about free will.

By the way, you say God MUST give us free will. He doesn't have to give us a thing, and you have no rights. None.


- Blessings

 

[Winman]

Enough with the I won't be able to grasp it. My 17 month old is reading Louis Berkhof and refuting your error as we speak. Hope you can take a joke. Now:

All of your argument, albeit very weak, supports the truth that God allows (permits) evil. Did He permit Satan to inflict evil upon Job? Yes or no?

I'll answer for you. "Yes."

Does this make Him sinful? No.

Even Job understood God allowed Satan to do this to him, ultimately saying "it was from the hand of God." Both good and evil. Yet in saying this Job did not sin by saying it, nor in saying it, did he charge God, foolishly. His lips were still pure.

Your free will nonsense has nothing to do with the immediate context of our debate.

Now, go get the immediate debate understood, then I will help you with the fallacy of free will.

You'll still love God after you understand you've been wrong all along about free will.

By the way, you say God MUST give us free will. He doesn't have to give us a thing, and you have no rights. None.


- Blessings

Oh, you want to compare kids? My 12 year old daughter got paid $100 last week to play classical music on piano for 45 minutes. That is NO JOKE but absolute truth. Do you make that much per hour?

I know you could understand what I said, but you fail to grasp it.

When God allowed Satan to afflict Job, that was to PROVE free will. Satan's challenge was that Job only loved God because God caused him to by blessing him. He said if God withdrew his protection Job would curse God. Didn't quite work out like Satan planned did it?

And Job had his eye on God's promises, he said he knew he would see his redeemer in the latter days in his flesh. Job was quite willing to endure affliction.

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh, you want to compare kids? My 12 year old daughter got paid $100 last week to play classical music on piano for 45 minutes. That is NO JOKE but absolute truth. Do you make that much per hour?

I know you could understand what I said, but you fail to grasp it.

When God allowed Satan to afflict Job, that was to PROVE free will. Satan's challenge was that Job only loved God because God caused him to by blessing him. He said if God withdrew his protection Job would curse God. Didn't quite work out like Satan planned did it?

And Job had his eye on God's promises, he said he knew he would see his redeemer in the latter days in his flesh. Job was quite willing to endure affliction.

Your kid is 12 and mine is 17 months and you want to compare, like Jr. High Schoolers would? OK.

Did God allow Satan to attack Job? Yep. Thus, He permits evil, something you previously denied.

Your philosophy is, yet again, flawed.

Satan thought Job served God because of what He received. He was wrong. And if Job had free will, this would have never happened. In free will, man is in control. Thats the fatal error of free will.

The thing Job proved is that God is in control, and even if God allowed evil, Job still trusted Him.

You're right, I cannot grasp your error. And neither can you grasp truth.

Who enabled Job to have the will to endure Winman? Job? Or ultimately, God? Php 2:13? He blessed and gave God Glory for all His control in all of this.

 

[Winman]

Oh, and our forefathers would disagree with you, they said we are created with certain unalienable rights, one of which is LIBERTY, which means freedom of choice.

As I said, you fail to grasp that God must give us rights because to do otherwise would be immoral and unrighteous, which God cannot do.

 

[Rippon]

As I said, you fail to grasp that God must give us rights because to do otherwise would be immoral and unrighteous, which God cannot do.

What "rights" do we deserve? Does God owe us anything?

 

[preacher4truth]

Oh, and our forefathers would disagree with you, they said we are created with certain unalienable rights, one of which is LIBERTY, which means freedom of choice.

As I said, you fail to grasp that God must give us rights because to do otherwise would be immoral and unrighteous, which God cannot do.

That's not Bible Winman. It's man made fallacy which obviously you have adopted as eternal truth.

We humans have rights (God owes us)?

We have no rights Winman. Show me where God has given us "rights" in Scripture. This alone shows me how far off track you are with understanding man and God. We have absolutely no rights. You act like God owes us. He does not.

You're intermingling "God and Country" with Christianity. They are not one in the same.

How do you concoct so much error in just one finite mind, Winman?

You seem like a nice person, as far as nice goes. Nice, and in much error.

 

[Winman]

Your kid is 12 and mine is 17 months and you want to compare, like Jr. High Schoolers would? OK.

Did God allow Satan to attack Job? Yep. Thus, He permits evil, something you previously denied.

Your philosophy is, yet again, flawed.

Satan thought Job served God because of what He received. He was wrong. And if Job had free will, this would have never happened. In free will, man is in control. Thats the fatal error of free will.

The thing Job proved is that God is in control, and even if God allowed evil, Job still trusted Him.

You're right, I cannot grasp your error. And neither can you grasp truth.

Who enabled Job to have the will to endure Winman? Job? Or ultimately, God? Php 2:13? He blessed and gave God Glory for all His control in all of this.

You started the kid's thing. I am sure your kid is a wonderful person, they all are.

God testing Christians is not evil.

Have you ever noticed that God gave Job twice as many animals as he lost, but only the same number of children that he lost? Do you know why?

Because Job's children were all believers and were not lost. Job understood. What greater blessing than knowing all your children are saved?

You call this evil?

Edit- And I agree God gives grace to believers during trials and tribulations. But those Christians who do best in such bad times are those who trust in God's promises, it is not forced.

 

[preacher4truth]

What "rights" do we deserve? Does God owe us anything?

Amen Rippon. Tell me I'm dreaming and wake me up.

This can't be happening.

 

[preacher4truth]

You started the kid's thing. I am sure your kid is a wonderful person, they all are.

God testing Christians is not evil.

Have you ever noticed that God gave Job twice as many animals as he lost, but only the same number of children that he lost? Do you know why?

Because Job's children were all believers and were not lost. Job understood. What greater blessing than knowing all your children are saved?

You call this evil?

"You started it!!!" Seriously?

Oh boy. Time for you to go to bed? How you ever twist this to "how do I see all that Job received (something we've never discussed) as evil" is clear evidence that your mind is going astray.

Get some sleep. You need it.

 

[Winman]

"You started it!!!" Seriously?

Oh boy. Time for you to go to bed? How you ever twist this to "how do I see all that Job received (something we've never discussed) as evil" is clear evidence that your mind is going astray.

Get some sleep. You need it.

In the context of the moment, yes, everything that happened to Job seemed evil, but that is not the viewpoint Christians are supposed to have, we are to look at eternity, which Job did. This is what helped him endure and will help us too if we think on God's promises.

What was the end of Job's trial? He recovered twice what he lost, all his children were saved, and Job has gone down in all eternity as one of the greatest men of faith ever.

 

[preacher4truth]

In the context of the moment, yes, everything that happened to Job seemed evil, but that is not the viewpoint Christians are supposed to have, we are to look at eternity, which Job did. This is what helped him endure and will help us too if we think on God's promises.

What was the end of Job's trial? He recovered twice what he lost, all his children were saved, and Job has gone down in all eternity as one of the greatest men of faith ever.

Yes he did. He displayed the Sovereignty of God to the "world," and showed he trusted God in all His Sovereignty, even if He slayed Him, and even went as far as to teach us that both good and evil come to us by the hand of God.

God is in control says Job, and again, Job trusts Him. Others that see God in control of all? They don't like Him that way. Trust Him in all ways? Not so much.

They seem bitter about it all.

That people freak out and get all bent out of shape at Gods Sovereignty, His Wrath, and other seemingly negative attributes, tells me perhaps they just don't know Him. A crash course in Biblical reality is due. HE ALONE is in control. Not man. Not Satan. He alone.

 

[Winman]

Yes he did. He displayed the Sovereignty of God to the "world," and showed he trusted God in all His Sovereignty, even if He slayed Him, and even went as far as to teach us that both good and evil come to us by the hand of God.

God is in control says Job, and again, Job trusts Him. Others that see God in control of all? They don't like Him that way. Trust Him in all ways? Not so much.

They seem bitter about it all.

That people freak out and get all bent out of shape at Gods Sovereignty, His Wrath, and other seemingly negative attributes, tells me perhaps they just don't know Him. A crash course in Biblical reality is due. HE ALONE is in control. Not man. Not Satan. He alone.

It is true that Satan had to get permission to afflict Job, but you must remember that Job was a believer who obeyed God as well as any man possibly could. God has promised to protect those in his will (Psa 91:11-12). Satan does not need permission to harm unbelievers.

2 Tim 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive at his will.

Satan can afflict unbelievers "at his will", he does not need permission.

If your view is correct, Satan is a servant of God performing his will.

Whose idea was it to afflict Job, God or Satan's?

 

[DHK]

Yes he did. He displayed the Sovereignty of God to the "world,"

That's a take I have never heard.
Job displayed the sovereignty of God to the world.
I guess Job must be in control, eh?

 

[preacher4truth]

It is true that Satan had to get permission to afflict Job, but you must remember that Job was a believer who obeyed God as well as any man possibly could. God has promised to protect those in his will (Psa 91:11-12). Satan does not need permission to harm unbelievers.

2 Tim 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive at his will.

Satan can afflict unbelievers "at his will", he does not need permission.

If your view is correct, Satan is a servant of God performing his will.

Whose idea was it to afflict Job, Gods or Satan's?

It is not "at his will" but "to do his will." You failed to apply the whole counsel of God to correctly interpret this passage. Nor do you rightly interpret the language.

God controls Satan and by permission only is he allowed any reign.

Quit your proof-texting Winman.

Give more Glory to God.

You seem quite reluctant to Glory in Him (God), as I have not seen you do this as of yet, but now you jump out and give Satan glory as if he can do as he wills, yet you fight against God that He can control all things, and do as He wills? Unreal!

Quite interesting to say the very very least.

Wow. So quick to strip God of Sovereignty, and usurp it with mans "freewill" and yet so quick, if not quicker to grant Satan power. Yes, very interesting indeed.

Who wanted to afflict Job? That's the question. We know God allowed it permissively. Perhaps in your theology of attributing power to Satan rather quickly, and believing man has rights (God owes him) you think Satan usurped God in this? Im only going by your public theology to logically conclude this.

Anyhow, the other question is, "Who allowed it?" which earlier you denied God allows it, and have come down with a severe case of "shut it" since and brushed it under the rug. And since also, you've admitted God allows it. I see you have accepted your error and have recanted.

I'm beginning to think you give more power to man, and Satan, than you do to God. Very interesting indeed. So quick to strip God of His control and Sovereignty you are, and so fast to say Satan can do as he wills.

 

[preacher4truth]

That's a take I have never heard.
Job displayed the sovereignty of God to the world.
I guess Job must be in control, eh?

You'd be the one to think Job to be more in control and Sovereign than God. You're reluctant to give Sovereignty to Him than you are man, others, and Job.

That's the real issue here.

All who read Job, can see God as Sovereign. Thus I put "world" in parentheses. And you struggled with the sentence. Go figure.

The exception of seeing God in total control via Job would be you, eh?

Yep, it's apparent,

 

[DHK]

You'd be the one to think Job to be more in control and Sovereign than God. You're reluctant to give Sovereignty to Him than you are man, others, and Job.

That's the real issue here.

All who read Job, can see God as Sovereign. Thus I put "world" in parentheses. And you struggled with the sentence. Go figure.

The exception of seeing God in total control via Job would be you, eh?

Yep, it's apparent,

Don't put words into my mouth. I quoted you. If you fumble with your words and say something that you don't mean then clarify yourself. As it is look at what you said:

Yes he did. He displayed the Sovereignty of God to the "world,"

Whatever I put in quotes like the above means it is word for word yours--copy and pasted without any editing. Those are your words. So you said, [Job] displayed the sovereignty of God to the world. If that is not what you intended to say then retract it, clarify it, or whatever.

But don't put words into my mouth. I have thus far not made one comment on the Book of Job. You have no right to say anything about what I believe.