God Creates Evil

[Me4Him]

Evil is not a creation, it is a posture, an attitude developed by humanity. A gun is not evil. It is used by some in an evil way.

God created Adam. Adam created his own evil self as he adopted what God told him not to do.

God cannot violate His own essence. Under His permissive will, a part of His absolute sovereignty, He allows man to develop his own character.

God does not and cannot create evil.

Cheers,

Jim

I agree.

Ge 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If everything God made was "good", and God made everything that is made, obviously,

there's a contradiction of scripture in saying the existence of evil is a creation of God.

God doesn't so much as tempt man to sin, or create evil,

God "MADE" it possible for sin/evil to exist in giving Adam a "CHOICE",

And Adam's "CHOICE" created the sin/evil.

God had "rested" from all "HIS WORK" on the "Seventh day",

Adam created an "Eighth day" by sinning, ending the "Seventh day", creating a "day of new beginning", when sin/death enter the world.

Jesus was resurrected on the "Eighth day", First day of the week.

After the "Seventh day" (MK) is over, in the "Eighth day", Satan is loose then the GWT Judgment.

"IF" Adam had not sinned, there wouldn't be an "Eighth day" on God's calendar.

 

[Marcia]

God is not logical. If he were then we could explain God. God creating evil is not about logic it is about His message to His people. Interpreting scripture requires an understanding of those things which surround when those passages were written.

God is not logical? Logic and reason are based in God's character. We can reason because we have been given that capacity as beings made in God's image. God reveals his attributes in the Bible. Just because we cannot explain everything about God does not mean we cannot know some things.

To interpret those passages about God creating evil they cannot be interpreted in light of American/Greek philosophy such as the way Americans think but rather as Jews thought.

To answer your question in a logical way one would only need to ask the question "Who created everything?" Is there anything which He did not create? The American and Greek philosophy put everything in separate boxes as thought were completely apart from each other. The Jew put everything in one circle

Evil is not a "thing." So God did not create it. You have never said how God could create evil if evil is not a thing. It's a lack or defiance of something -- and that something is goodness.

 

[Marcia]

Double post

 

[Marcia]

Triple post! I thought I was through with this kind of thing happening!

 

[Marcia]

The Jew put everything in one circle.

I don't think that is entirely correct. They had a linear view of history, for one thing. They were not cyclical like the pagan cultures were/are.

 

[gb93433]

I don't think that is entirely correct. They had a linear view of history, for one thing. They were not cyclical like the pagan cultures were/are.

You are missing my point. What I meant is that the Jew would have placed everything within the circle not compartmentalized things such as a Greek/American philosophical view.

 

[gb93433]

Evil is not a "thing." So God did not create it. You have never said how God could create evil if evil is not a thing. It's a lack or defiance of something -- and that something is goodness.

People are not things but God created them. Stick to scripture and its historical context for the correct interpretation of scripture not reading into your systematic theological/logical view of God. Many times the view held by those who do such things very much parallels German rationalism. German rationalism was a reaction to the ills of liberalism while both of them are wrong.

Again go back to Is. 45:7, Lam. 3:38 and Amos 3:6.

 

[Marcia]

People are not things but God created them. Stick to scripture and its historical context for the correct interpretation of scripture not reading into your systematic theological/logical view of God. Many times the view held by those who do such things very much parallels German rationalism. German rationalism was a reaction to the ills of liberalism while both of them are wrong.

Again go back to Is. 45:7, Lam. 3:38 and Amos 3:6.

By "thing," I mean something with an ontological nature.

I am sticking to scripture - my view of God is from scripture. Evil does not have ontological existence. You have yet to explain how God created evil. Evil comes from actions; it does not exist on its own apart from the sin nature or from actions.

Why don't you look at the passages in Is 47 and Amos 3 in the NASB? They use "calamity."

7The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity;
I am the LORD who does all these.



Amos 3:6
If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble?
If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?
7Surely the Lord GOD does nothing
Unless He reveals His secret counsel
To His servants the prophets.


In the context of those passages, "calamity" makes more sense.

 

[gb93433]

By "thing," I mean something with an ontological nature.

I am sticking to scripture - my view of God is from scripture. Evil does not have ontological existence. You have yet to explain how God created evil.

If I fully understood why and how God created evil I would be God. If I were to logically explain the existence of evil I would have to start with a creator. If God creates good then its very existence demands an identifier. Its identifier is evil. For good to exist then evil must co-exist. There cannot be good without bad and there cannot be bad without good.

If nothing can exist apart from God then evil cannot exist apart from God.

 

[Me4Him]

If God creates good then its very existence demands an identifier. Its identifier is evil. For good to exist then evil must co-exist. There cannot be good without bad and there cannot be bad without good.

How would you explain the new earth, evil won't exit there???

 

[John Toppass]

How would you explain the new earth, evil won't exit there???

Choice will not exist either because the choice has been made.

 

[gb93433]

“The phenomenon and problem of evil can be described as follows: “Evil, understood in the broadest sense, refers to everything that is bad. It thus includes—to use a classical distinction—both ‘physical’ evil, directly due to nature, and “moral” evil, due to human volition; to these, the modern definition of the problem adds ‘social’ or ‘structural’ evil, the injustice that falls between necessity and approbation. The thing itself—whether physical, moral, or social—has always eluded the grasp of Western metaphysics, and for good reason: its essence has been impossible to define. Of course the world is full of . . . ‘evil.’ In itself however, it appears to be nothing, for it cannot be understood in isolation. There is no such thing as the evil one, nor is there an element of the world that is evil wither inherently or even indirectly. But of course there is always someone or something that is evil. Thus evil appears in the predicate, as an attribute. Its domain is events, actions, and their effects. Possibly this is why it has repeatedly eluded ontological philosophy. ‘Evil is a relational concept: its business is with action and suffering, with human and social interaction. We perceive as evil whatever threatens us, brings disorder, destroys life, turns change into catastrophe. It is, at bottom, an attack on existence and on life. . . . It tends toward death” (TDOT Vol. XIII p. 567-568).

1 Sam 16:14, “Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.”
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

 

[Marcia]

If I fully understood why and how God created evil I would be God. If I were to logically explain the existence of evil I would have to start with a creator. If God creates good then its very existence demands an identifier. Its identifier is evil. For good to exist then evil must co-exist. There cannot be good without bad and there cannot be bad without good.

If nothing can exist apart from God then evil cannot exist apart from God.

You are saying that good cannot exist without evil, yet God has existed from eternity and there was no evil. "God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all" from 1 John. Evil is not a part of God's character; it is a defiance of his character. God does not defy Himself.


1 Sam 16:14, “Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.”

God sent an evil spirit to Saul -- this does not mean God created evil or evil comes from God. This was a judgment on Saul and God sent an evil spirit to afflict him.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are saying that good cannot exist without evil, yet God has existed from eternity and there was no evil. "God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all" from 1 John. Evil is not a part of God's character; it is a defiance of his character. God does not defy Himself.


1 Sam 16:14, “Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.”

God sent an evil spirit to Saul -- this does not mean God created evil or evil comes from God. This was a judgment on Saul and God sent an evil spirit to afflict him.

But you see Marcia that with a Calvinistic point of view or with a strong predestinarian view God has to be responsible for evil. God in his totality and in his supremacy had to provide an option for evil for things as they are. Satan who was created by God had a choice. Being a good created being, how did he come up with the idea of evil? The very basic command to Adam "do not eat the fruit" automatically by its nature includes an evil option and option that Adam would not have considered save that it was put to him. Could the same be said of Lucifer? Jesus was not plan B he is plan A therefore God presents evil and the option to overcome it.

 

[Benjamin]

But you see Marcia that with a Calvinistic point of view or with a strong predestinarian view God has to be responsible for evil. God in his totality and in his supremacy had to provide an option for evil for things as they are. Satan who was created by God had a choice. Being a good created being, how did he come up with the idea of evil? The very basic command to Adam "do not eat the fruit" automatically by its nature includes an evil option and option that Adam would not have considered save that it was put to him. Could the same be said of Lucifer? Jesus was not plan B he is plan A therefore God presents evil and the option to overcome it.

Big! Theological problems in a predestinarian concluding God is the author of evil.

You might want to begin by researching the P.O.E. "Problem of Evil". BTW, I assure you that your "plan A therefore" logic of God presents evil can be thoroughly disputed in many ways. I won't get started on this but just wanted to suggest that the subject gets much deeper than the simplistic explanation you have presented to Marcia; I'm sure she understands the "strong predestinarian view" of that God has to be responsible for evil BTW, I just hope you don't agree with it before looking deeper into the subject while considering the attributes and nature of an Omnibenevolent God.

Just saying.

 

[corndogggy]

God did not author nor cause the evil.

There's plenty of references in the bible that says God caused evil.

Exodus 32:14 - "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

Judges 9:23 - "God sent an evil spirit..."

1 Samuel 16:14-16, 23... 18:10... 19:9 - (an evil spirit from God is mentioned 6 times)

1 Kings 14:10 - "I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam"

1 Kings 21:21 - "I will bring evil upon thee"

1 Kings 21:29 - "Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son's days will I bring the evil upon his house. "

2 Kings 6:28, 29, 33 - (talking about cannibalism in 28-29) "Behold, this evil is of the LORD"

2 Kings 21:12 - "Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle."

2 Chronicles 34:24, 28: "Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place... neither shall thine eyes see all the evil that I will bring upon this place"

Jeremiah 4:6 - "I will bring evil from the north"

Jeremiah 6:19 - " I will bring evil upon this people"

Jeremiah 11:11 - "Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them"

Jeremiah 11:17 - "For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee"

Jeremiah 18:11 - "... Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you..."

Jeremiah 19:3 - "...Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle."

Jeremiah 23:12 - "I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD"

Jeremiah 32:42 - "For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people"

Jeremiah 35:17 - "Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them"

Jeremiah 36:3 - "Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them"

Jeremiah 40:2 - "LORD thy God hath pronounced this evil upon this place."

Jeremiah 42:10 - "I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you."

Jeremiah 42:15-17 - "none of them shall remain or escape from the evil that I will bring upon them"

Jeremiah 44:2 - "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem"

Jeremiah 44:11 - "Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will set my face against you for evil, and to cut off all Judah"

Jeremiah 45:5 - "I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD"

Jeremiah 49:37 - "I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them"

Micah 1:12 - "evil came down from the LORD"

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Big! Theological problems in a predestinarian concluding God is the author of evil.

You might want to begin by researching the P.O.E. "Problem of Evil". BTW, I assure you that your "plan A therefore" logic of God presents evil can be thoroughly disputed in many ways. I won't get started on this but just wanted to suggest that the subject gets much deeper than the simplistic explanation you have presented to Marcia; I'm sure she understands the "strong predestinarian view" of that God has to be responsible for evil BTW, I just hope you don't agree with it before looking deeper into the subject while considering the attributes and nature of an Omnibenevolent God.

Just saying.

I don't agree with it. I wanted to bring up a dichotomy of belief when it comes to the "Strong Predestinarian" view. I'm questioning the view. Not God. And of course I made it simplistic. But if you want me to become more explicit; I can. However, noting that you brought up the consept "the problem of evil" which ultimately questions the existance of God, I was not going in that direction. What you refer to is this logical progression:

1) Gratuitous evils probably exist.
(2) Gratuitous evils are incompatible with the God of theism (omnipotent, omniscient, all-good).
(3) Therefore, the God of theism probably does not exist.

The problem with this progression is the definition of evil. What is an appropiate definition of evil? I think scriptures are clear on this matter. What would that be? I define evil to simply be against God's will. In other words

God does not forbid murder because its evil; it is evil because God forbids it.

Which closesly matches Calvin here :

The will of God is the highest rule of justice; so that what he wills must be considered just...for this very reason, because he wills it." (Calvin's Institutes, book 3, chapter 3, section 2

Ok simple definition right? Well it has been long understood that

It is clear that chronologically nobody knows anything prior to all experience.

So that being the case man would have no consept of disobedience save it was given to him. Note disobedience is therefore against God's will thus evil. Eating from the tree in the center of the garden therefore was not evil until God said not to eat of it. Clearly an opportunity for evil choice was put before Adam who until now would know nothing of it. Man was given his first understanding of what evil was (before this it was not considered) and the consequences of Evil because God said he would surely die. Satan further tempted the man and man fell. Yet evil was opportune the moment God identified something agianst his will. How did Satan concieve evil in his heart unless it were already there? This is where I think Calvinism and predestination breakdown because ultimately God is responsible for it.

 

[gb93433]

You are saying that good cannot exist without evil, yet God has existed from eternity and there was no evil. "God is light, and in him there is no darkness at all" from 1 John. Evil is not a part of God's character; it is a defiance of his character. God does not defy Himself.


1 Sam 16:14, “Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.”

God sent an evil spirit to Saul -- this does not mean God created evil or evil comes from God. This was a judgment on Saul and God sent an evil spirit to afflict him.

Are you saying that God did not create everything and by that statement you mean to say that God was limited in His creation? Therefore leaving two creators and two creations.

 

[Benjamin]

I don't agree with it. I wanted to bring up a dichotomy of belief when it comes to the "Strong Predestinarian" view. I'm questioning the view. Not God. And of course I made it simplistic. But if you want me to become more explicit; I can. However, noting that you brought up the consept "the problem of evil" which ultimately questions the existance of God, I was not going in that direction. What you refer to is this logical progression:

1) Gratuitous evils probably exist.
(2) Gratuitous evils are incompatible with the God of theism (omnipotent, omniscient, all-good).
(3) Therefore, the God of theism probably does not exist.

I don’t really have time to get into depth here but do want to answer you with a bit of my reasoning:

The problem with the logic of P.O.E. is the assumption that the “God of theism” must have created evil because evil does exist.

God created everything that exists.
Evil exists.
Therefore, God created evil.

Evil can not come out of only good.
Evil came out of God.
Therefore, God is evil… not only good.

The atheist will allude to: “Why would I want to be in heaven with such a despot who didn’t even give me a choice?”


A hyper Calvinism/Predestinarianism is a philosophical atheist’s best friend for supporting their argument, i.e.; “the sovereign God must have created all things; therefore God has evil attributes and nature and is not an only loving God and I (the atheist) refuse to accept serving an evil god.” He thinks he is morally superior, himself as a god, and asks the question: Why is your god evil, why did he create some men to be evil, and why should I want to serve him in his evil world which he created?

The short answer to the question is that man has free will by Divine design. Even most theologically sound Calvinists will somewhere along the line incorporate the will of man in their theology; this is where “compatiblism” theories come into play along with metaphysics. If not, the only avenue they will end up with is an evil god (P.O.E.) and logically fall on theological fatalism.

If you were to try arguing a different definition for evil somewhere you are going to have to argue it is the same as good, IOW’s not opposite or not mutually exclusive and will have no choice but to attribute it to an only good god. You are back to ground zero, Fatalism.

I just don’t have the time to evaluate, dig through literally 1000’s of old docs and notes (which are totally disorganized :tonofbricks and begin rewriting while arguing every point, but will offer a couple of old quotes I have written and show you where I would be coming from in such an argument:

“I think omnipotent God exist within His desired will and His own self derived nature which is good, love, and truth, He abides within His truth nature being self created in it. God could make 2+2=5 but that is not the truth that He created within His own nature, it is not logical that God could make 2+2=4 as truth and yet make 2+2=5 true also no more than He could make a rock so big He couldn’t lift it. I might say He is limited within His own nature of truth by His own choice of His nature.”

“I assume that freedom is a “good” that God desired rather than absolute moral perfection from His creatures. Evil is something that God does not want but yet has given His creatures the freedom to bring it about. So I would agree the standard of right and wrong that we have to follow is not necessarily based off of “His” character but is based off “our” standard that we received the knowledge of because of the fall and we will fail. To be good we must abide within His existence through His truth nature of good as He created it. If we think we can judge good from evil aside from God then we would have to be a god but there is only One God. The truth of His nature would have to be unchanging or it would not logically be a truth as in changing the absolute answer of 2+2.”

 

[Marcia]

But you see Marcia that with a Calvinistic point of view or with a strong predestinarian view God has to be responsible for evil. God in his totality and in his supremacy had to provide an option for evil for things as they are. Satan who was created by God had a choice. Being a good created being, how did he come up with the idea of evil? The very basic command to Adam "do not eat the fruit" automatically by its nature includes an evil option and option that Adam would not have considered save that it was put to him. Could the same be said of Lucifer? Jesus was not plan B he is plan A therefore God presents evil and the option to overcome it.

Well, I'm not a Calvinist.

Creating Satan who had a choice does not mean God created evil. I don't know why people can't see that. Satan didn't come up with the idea of evil; he decided he to defy God because he had that choice. Other angels decided not to defy God.