Marcia
Active Member
None of this means God created evil. He did allow evil things to happen, which was part of his judgment on sin.
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God Creates Evil
- Thread starter drfuss
- Start date
None of this means God created evil. He did allow evil things to happen, which was part of his judgment on sin.
“The phenomenon and problem of evil can be described as follows: “Evil, understood in the broadest sense, refers to everything that is bad. It thus includes—to use a classical distinction—both ‘physical’ evil, directly due to nature, and “moral” evil, due to human volition; to these, the modern definition of the problem adds ‘social’ or ‘structural’ evil, the injustice that falls between necessity and approbation. The thing itself—whether physical, moral, or social—has always eluded the grasp of Western metaphysics, and for good reason: its essence has been impossible to define. Of course the world is full of . . . ‘evil.’ In itself however, it appears to be nothing, for it cannot be understood in isolation. There is no such thing as the evil one, nor is there an element of the world that is evil wither inherently or even indirectly. But of course there is always someone or something that is evil. Thus evil appears in the predicate, as an attribute. Its domain is events, actions, and their effects. Possibly this is why it has repeatedly eluded ontological philosophy. ‘Evil is a relational concept: its business is with action and suffering, with human and social interaction. We perceive as evil whatever threatens us, brings disorder, destroys life, turns change into catastrophe. It is, at bottom, an attack on existence and on life. . . . It tends toward death” (TDOT Vol. XIII p. 567-568).
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Marcia
Active Member
No, I'm saying, as I said before, that evil is not a thing. It is a behavior against God. Did God force Satan to defy Him? Did God force Adam to sin? No.
Then God only created good and another creator created evil? Does that mean that God did not create men who are without Christ?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
I don’t really have time to get into depth here but do want to answer you with a bit of my reasoning:
The problem with the logic of P.O.E. is the assumption that the “God of theism” must have created evil because evil does exist.
God created everything that exists.
Evil exists.
Therefore, God created evil.
Evil can not come out of only good.
Evil came out of God.
Therefore, God is evil… not only good.
The atheist will allude to: “Why would I want to be in heaven with such a despot who didn’t even give me a choice?”
A hyper Calvinism/Predestinarianism is a philosophical atheist’s best friend for supporting their argument, i.e.; “the sovereign God must have created all things; therefore God has evil attributes and nature and is not an only loving God and I (the atheist) refuse to accept serving an evil god.” He thinks he is morally superior, himself as a god, and asks the question: Why is your god evil, why did he create some men to be evil, and why should I want to serve him in his evil world which he created?
The short answer to the question is that man has free will by Divine design. Even most theologically sound Calvinists will somewhere along the line incorporate the will of man in their theology; this is where “compatiblism” theories come into play along with metaphysics. If not, the only avenue they will end up with is an evil god (P.O.E.) and logically fall on theological fatalism.
If you were to try arguing a different definition for evil somewhere you are going to have to argue it is the same as good, IOW’s not opposite or not mutually exclusive and will have no choice but to attribute it to an only good god. You are back to ground zero, Fatalism.
I just don’t have the time to evaluate, dig through literally 1000’s of old docs and notes (which are totally disorganized :tonofbricksand begin rewriting while arguing every point, but will offer a couple of old quotes I have written and show you where I would be coming from in such an argument:
“I think omnipotent God exist within His desired will and His own self derived nature which is good, love, and truth, He abides within His truth nature being self created in it. God could make 2+2=5 but that is not the truth that He created within His own nature, it is not logical that God could make 2+2=4 as truth and yet make 2+2=5 true also no more than He could make a rock so big He couldn’t lift it. I might say He is limited within His own nature of truth by His own choice of His nature.”
“I assume that freedom is a “good” that God desired rather than absolute moral perfection from His creatures. Evil is something that God does not want but yet has given His creatures the freedom to bring it about. So I would agree the standard of right and wrong that we have to follow is not necessarily based off of “His” character but is based off “our” standard that we received the knowledge of because of the fall and we will fail. To be good we must abide within His existence through His truth nature of good as He created it. If we think we can judge good from evil aside from God then we would have to be a god but there is only One God. The truth of His nature would have to be unchanging or it would not logically be a truth as in changing the absolute answer of 2+2.”
So far so good. Or I agree everything from this perspective comes back to fatalism and God's responsibility for evil. Your last quote still matches what I believe Calvin is saying here:
and I've summed up here :
Which still leaves you with the problem here:
In which case God introduces the opportunity for evil. Strangely enough Satan did not introduce the opportunity of evil for man he just capatalized on the consept already introduced by God.
I would not put it that God is responsible for evil; He allows evil as a truth that good does exist. If God is only Good then evil can not be of His responsibility, it can only be something that He allowed as a truth in order for the good to exist. (In conjunction with my first quote)
I don’t see evil in the tree that God placed in the garden, not even an evil attempt or ploy to create the beginning of evil. The tree was a tree of knowledge, and man, within Divine volitional creaturely design, had the ability to choose and disobey, which he did, and upon receiving that knowledge man became responsible as a judge between good and evil. Problem is there is only one Good, One God, (Gen 3:22) and when man is comparing judgment against God’s man falls short. I see the accounts of Genesis explaining to us who we creatures are, made in His likeness and image, gaining knowledge by our own choice within this design, BUT we are not gods, there is only One who can judge good, One Creator who is Lord over all.
To the ones who resent having a Higher Power (God) to be over their own moral judgment I would say: Hey, don’t want to live in this world and spend eternity with your Lord and Creator who made you in love? Got too much pride in your own little world of knowledge which He allowed you to have? Fine, you don’t have to live with Him, you have an alternative. But, don’t complain in your bitterness about your Creator making you just the way He did, otherwise you wouldn’t even have this decision to make.
(On a side bar issue) Back to the P.O.E. Basically, the way I perceive the argument is that the atheist is complaining and whining that he can’t be a god while thinking in his God given knowledge that he is morally superior to God.
In a sense evil is the absence of good. God is good, Jesus said. "Why do you call me good; only God is good," he said to the rich young ruler.
God is not evil, neither the author of evil.
Adam rebelled against that which was good. God gave him good. He looked upon everything that he created and it was very good. By rebelling he was taking away from the goodness that God created, particularly their own goodness. The image and likeness in which they were created was marred. It was no longer "good" in the way that God created it. The creation was no longer "good" in the way that God had created it. God removed its goodness because of Adam's sin. And all things began to deteriorate into a state of decay. The curse was set in motion.
There is always a consequence for sin. God is just. His justice and holiness does not contradict his love.
The evil that God creates isn't necessarily sin. The flood was considered evil. Calamity is considered evil. Natural disaster is the evil God can and does create.
1. Having bad qualities of a natural kind; mischievous; having qualities which tend to injury, or to produce mischief.
There is moral evil as well but God doesn't sin. Moral evil is sin.
MB
Marcia
Active Member
Yes, God only created good - read Gen. 1 where it says "and it was good" over and over. Man was good when God created him (and the angels), but man chose to disobey God. That was evil. God did not create that, although He created the man.
Since sin entered the world, the world has been evil as a consequence, but God did not create that because God did not create sin.
Sin just sort of showed up on the scene all by itself? You have explained the origin of evil from a Greek point of view. Now from a Jewish point of view explain the origin of evil then you will explain the origin of evil according to scripture written for Jews.
Marcia
Active Member
No, I've explained it from the Bible. God is good. God creates and says that it is good. Man chooses to sin. Sin is evil.
Any explanation of evil must match what the Bible tells us. I did that. The origin of evil is sin, or one could say they are the same thing, and sin does not come from God.
Your explanations have often been your thoughts stemming from logic but not what scripture always explicitly says. I believe your explanation to be somewhat adequate in many ways from a Greek point of view but not in accordance with what the Bible directly says from a Jewish point of view. The problem occurs when young Chrisitans encounter those verses and someone tries ot explain them awway without correclty interpreting those pasages in light of its historical context. Most of scripture is not written to Greeks but to Jews. Therefore scripture must interpreted in light of its historical context. Go back and take a look at what I quoted form the TDOT and see if that agres witrh what you wrote. I do not beleiev if you were to take that Hebrew word and lok it up in each place it is used that you will find what you claim in every case. The Jewish point of view is very different than our Greek viewpoint.
I find it interesting that so many would disagree with scripture by trying to explain it logically in light of their personal theology. Just a few years agio I had the same discussion with one of the top SBC professors. My opinion is that he is the best. At one itme he was in charge of the doctoral program. He enlightened and corrected me about this matter. When I begna to think it through I realized I was doing thge same thing you are doing. I realized that I was too often interpreting scripture in light of an English interpretation of a word or passage and not a Jewish historical context.
Go back and think through the origin of evil. Where did that come from?
Gen. 6:5, "The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart."
Speaking of using ‘logic’ (A study of determining between good and bad reasoning in order to get to the truth), let’s define the hypocrisy from the statement above to determine a truth by a method of reasoning, called:
“Positive Ad Hominem”
“An Ad Hominem fallacy, then, is committed if we rebut a person on the bases of considerations that, logically, apply to the person rather than to his or her claims. Strictly speaking, if we automatically transfer the positive or favorable attributions of a person to what he or she says, that’s a mistake in reasoning, as well. The fact that you think Moore is cleaver does not logically entitle you to conclude that any specific opinion of Moore’s is clever.” (Critical Thinking by Moore/Parker)
Logicians do not always limit the Ad Hominem to rebuttal; a parallel mistake in reasoning happens, “if you confuse the favorable qualities of a person with the qualities of their assertions.” (215)
Sin is simply the byproduct of the Law. Before the Law, there was no sin. Sin isn't a something, it's what God doesn't want us to do. Sin it self is therefore is created each time we do what God doesn't want us to do. We comit or create the sin when we break God's commandments. It doesn't exist until we comit it
MB
Marcia
Active Member
I don't have to be Jewish to understand the bible.
Please show how what I said is in conflict with the Bible.
I am not a young Christian but that's an ad hominem anyway.
Scripture is written to us today as well as it was to the Jews.
I'm not explaining it in light of my personal theology. I think someone else pointed out that evil can be calamity, like an earthquake, or it is moral evil, which is sin. I assumed we were discussing moral evil.
I already answered you about 6 times. Evil comes from sin.
Scripture is not written to us today and it was never written to us today. The last of scripture was written less than 200 years ago. Scripture was written to whomever it was addressed to. However it is useful for us when interpreted correctly (2Tim 3:16). For example Matthew was written to the same people as Matthew nor for the same purpose. Genesis was not written to those who hold Greek view of god but rather a Jewish view. They are very different.
The Hebrew word translated "calamity" can also be translated "evil" depending on context
How would you interpre t 1 Sam 16:14, “Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.” The evil spirit is from Yahweh.
If you believe that, then what is the origin of sin? What is the origin of the sinner? Sinners sin. God never separates the sinner from the sin as American theology permits.
American/Greek theology permits each item to be compartmentalized and separate from each other. Whereas Jewish theology does not. Scripture in almost every case was written to Jews. Jewish theology sees everything within the same circle and that includes God and man. Greek/American theolgy separates them.
Gen 2:9 "Out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil."
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Marcia
Active Member
I realize it was originally written to another audience but it is certainly written for believers today as well. God's word is for all believers, past, present, and future.
What scripture would that be??
You keep saying this but you have yet to show how it makes anything I said wrong.
That doesn't mean God created evil. The evil spirit existed - God did not create it as evil. It was an angel that rebelled with Satan. God did not force it to become rebellious.
I already said that the origin of sin is sinners.
So what? You keep saying this but you have yet to explain how it makes anything I said unbiblical or wrong. Biblical Jewish theology is not panentheistic. I am not convinced biblical Jewish theology sees "everything within the same circle" depending on what you mean by that. It sounds like the Kabbalah, which certainly is not biblical Judaism.
Yes, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Just a note Marcia. Biblical Judaism didn't survive past AD 70.
Marcia
Active Member
I agree. I agree (had to write it twice as post was too short).
Marcia
Active Member
You have piqued my curiosity. What scripture was written less than 200 years ago?