God Got The Memo

[skypair]

Back in the days when I used to converse with you, I repeatedly pointed out this error, namely, of confusing election with salvation.

I apologize. We "misconnected." Will you consider two different meanings of "election" -- spiritual and temporal? This may be the key to that "misconnect," Larry.

skypair

 

[skypair]

If belief is given, it is also given to the reprobate as they are damned because the "believe not"...not because they cannot believe.

Web -- can we work on a premise that "belief" differs from "faith?" That belief = hope but faith = "sight" (substance, evidence)???

skypair

 

[webdog]

That's a non sequitur. The Bible never says that the reprobate are given belief, which places that in a different category.

...and you believe in man's responsibility...how?

 

[Rippon]

PL, you are right. "Faith" is a gift. 1Cor 12:9 It is a gift to those who believe. Believing lacks the critical elements of "substance" and "evidence," Heb 11:1, right?

skypair

You have that backwards , but what's new ? Faith is a gift of God . The Lord doesn't give it to folks who already believe . No one can believe on their own . God has to open one's mind/heart -- He grants them belief and repentance .

 

[skypair]

Faith is a gift of God . The Lord doesn't give it to folks who already believe.

I hope you are going to think about what you just said. :laugh:

God doesn't give proof to those who "hope" in Christ?

Rip, while I got you "on the line" -- are you or aren't you "adopted?"

skypair

 

[Pastor Larry]

PL, you are right. "Faith" is a gift. 1Cor 12:9 It is a gift to those who believe.

You are here confusing spiritual gifts with saving faith. They are not the same gift of God.

Believing lacks the critical elements of "substance" and "evidence," Heb 11:1, right?

No, not right. As I have demonstrated before from Scripture, faith and belief are the same thing.

Will you consider two different meanings of "election" -- spiritual and temporal?

I am not aware of this distinction in Scripture.

This may be the key to that "misconnect," Larry.

I think the key to the "misconnect" is believing the words of Scripture.

 

[nunatak]

I think you guys missed the point of my question. I understand who His own were.

My question was to the Calvinists.

It seems "His own" would certainly be the elect, His sheep. It is said that the sheep and the elect will come to Him, yet in this verse, they did not come to Him, but rejected Him, even though they were "His own".

Clearer?

Sorry Amy, your irony went right over me.

 

[Amy.G]

Sorry Amy, your irony went right over me.

That's ok. Sometimes I don't understand me either. :laugh:

 

[DHK]

Second, who do you think did the giving? From the whole of Scripture, both about gifts and about faith, it is clear that God did the giving.

This is not an argument you can win on exegesis. The Scriptures are solidly and unanimously against you.

If you look at the context of Phil.1:25-30, the subject is not faith, but rather salvation. We are given salvation, which comes by faith. The passage speaks of the gospel, of salvation, of "the faith," etc. It speaks of those things which come to us freely by faith. It says nothing about God giving us faith.
To read that into the passage is doing the same as the Catholics reading infant baptism into the household of the jailor in Acts 16. It just isn't there.

The Bible speaks only of the gift of faith in respect to believers, and that in respect to spiritual gifts which were primarily spoken of in reference to the first century, such as: the gift of tongues, the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, etc. I do not believe that those gifts are in operation today.

Faith has an object. All faith has an object. The object of my faith is Jesus Christ. But that isn't the truth for everyone. I made that decision on my own when I turned my attention from putting my faith in Mary and in the RCC, and rather put my faith in Christ instead. The object of my faith at one time was Mary. Now the object of my faith is Christ. What is the object of your faith.
The object of many peoples' faith is: Allah, Buddha, materialism, sports, etc.
Man believes. It is man's decision to choose in what he believes based on the facts. Based on the facts of the resurrected Lord I chose a personal relationship with Christ over some other religion. My faith is not some mystical faith. It is based on facts. It is intelligent faith. It has an object. I am not going to sit by and blindly say like a mystic that God gave me faith and I was elected, thus without any responsibility on my part, it was fatalistic, and I was doomed to be saved.
Election on the part of the Calvinist sounds no different than the doctrine of fatalism on part of Islam. Whatever the will of God (Allah) decrees, it will come to pass. In that respect Islam and Calvinism are the same.

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

You said...

He may be involved in our salvation. But man is not a robot forced to believe God."

Nobody, neither arminians or calvinists, believes that God turns people into robots.

But irregardless, THIS...

"He may be involved in our salvation..."

....is simply a STUNNING statement to come from ANY christian. God...*MAY*...be involved in our salvation?????

That just breathtaking.

You said...

"If man doesn't have the faith, that is choose on his own to believe, and likewise to repent (the two are connected with each other), then how can he be saved."

But at the same time, the scriptures tell us...

"No one can come to me, unless the Father that sent me draws him"

You said...

"Salvation is predicated on belief; one's own belief. The choice is one's own. When presented with the gospel he may either reject or accept the gospel. God does not force him to do either one."

And yet, it is still utterly absurd, and borderline heresy, to say that God "may" be involved in our salvation. The obvious implication is that "maybe He is, maybe He isnt, who knows....its all up to the person, after all".

Nonsense.

"No one can come to me, unless the Father that sent me draws him"

If God is not drawing someone, through the wooing of the Holy Spirit, that poor one can work up whatever fleshly "belief" in Christ he wants, and he will be no more saved than the demons.

I was a "believer" in Jesus Christ from about 1st grade until the age of 25, but I was completly lost.

But God began back then to draw me, and He never took that drawing away until, after about 2 years of conviction, I embraced Christ through faith alone.

God was INTIMETLY and POWERFULLY involved with me the whole time.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Pastor Larry]

If you look at the context of Phil.1:25-30, the subject is not faith, but rather salvation.

No it's not The subject of 1:25-30 is living a life worthy of the gospel, unalarmed by suffering, because that is God's plan for us.

We are given salvation,

While that is true, that is not what the passage says.

It says nothing about God giving us faith.

So who does the giving in v. 29?

To read that into the passage is doing the same as the Catholics reading infant baptism into the household of the jailor in Acts 16. It just isn't there.

Totally and completely false.

The Bible speaks only of the gift of faith in respect to believers,

Of course, because faith is given to people to become believers, but the spiritual gift of faith is not the same as saving faith.

I made that decision on my own

No you didn't.

I am not going to sit by and blindly say like a mystic that God gave me faith and I was elected, thus without any responsibility on my part, it was fatalistic, and I was doomed to be saved.

Then you are well on your way to being a Cavlinist, because this is exactly what Calvinism says. No one is saying this is mystic, or that faith isn't in Jesus Christ, or that man has no responsibility, or is doomed to be saved. That is pure nonsense.

Election on the part of the Calvinist sounds no different than the doctrine of fatalism on part of Islam. Whatever the will of God (Allah) decrees, it will come to pass. In that respect Islam and Calvinism are the same.

Shameful. Utterly shameful. The doctrines have nothing in common and you are spiritually mature and knowledgeable enough to know that. Just because you can't win on exegesis doesn't mean you need to go and try to win by "guilt by association."

 

[skypair]

You are here confusing spiritual gifts with saving faith. They are not the same gift of God.

How are they different?

No, not right. As I have demonstrated before from Scripture, faith and belief are the same thing.

Yeah, but if I repeat the truth enough times, you'll believe it. :laugh:

Let me give you an example --- do you have belief in the rapture or faith in it (Er ...I hope you have one or the other :laugh: )?

I am not aware of this distinction in Scripture.

You're probably right -- ALL election is "temporal." Well, except the Calvie use of the term.

I think the key to the "misconnect" is believing the words of Scripture.

I can see it might be "understanding" the words of scripture. I know we are both believers in something that appears to be scriptural.

skypair

 

[nunatak]

If you look at the context of Phil.1:25-30, the subject is not faith, but rather salvation. We are given salvation, which comes by faith. The passage speaks of the gospel, of salvation, of "the faith," etc. It speaks of those things which come to us freely by faith. It says nothing about God giving us faith.
To read that into the passage is doing the same as the Catholics reading infant baptism into the household of the jailor in Acts 16. It just isn't there.

The Bible speaks only of the gift of faith in respect to believers, and that in respect to spiritual gifts which were primarily spoken of in reference to the first century, such as: the gift of tongues, the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, etc. I do not believe that those gifts are in operation today.

Faith has an object. All faith has an object. The object of my faith is Jesus Christ. But that isn't the truth for everyone. I made that decision on my own when I turned my attention from putting my faith in Mary and in the RCC, and rather put my faith in Christ instead. The object of my faith at one time was Mary. Now the object of my faith is Christ. What is the object of your faith.
The object of many peoples' faith is: Allah, Buddha, materialism, sports, etc.
Man believes. It is man's decision to choose in what he believes based on the facts. Based on the facts of the resurrected Lord I chose a personal relationship with Christ over some other religion. My faith is not some mystical faith. It is based on facts. It is intelligent faith. It has an object. I am not going to sit by and blindly say like a mystic that God gave me faith and I was elected, thus without any responsibility on my part, it was fatalistic, and I was doomed to be saved.
Election on the part of the Calvinist sounds no different than the doctrine of fatalism on part of Islam. Whatever the will of God (Allah) decrees, it will come to pass. In that respect Islam and Calvinism are the same.

Posts like this make me feel sad because it seems you give yourself glory, instead of giving all the glory to God.

 

[canadyjd]

First, I have missed our discussions, canady. Perhaps you too have forgotten many of them because I can't remember when I was last at a loss for answers!

I believe that was the only time.:thumbs:

Basically, they weren't His sheep because they weren't believers in Him (the "sheep gate," 10:7, 9).

You are turning the very words of our Lord around to fit what you to believe. Jesus told some "you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." The "effect" (do not believe) is the result of the "cause" (you are not of My sheep). It is not that they are not His sheep because they do not believe (as you are stating). Rather, they do not believe because they are not His sheep. Just listen to Jesus speak and forget your preconceived notions (as I had to do when I really studied this issue).

When they enter in by Him, He is their "Shepherd" -- they are His "own sheep," 10:11.

Again, you are changing the words of Jesus around to fit what you want to believe.

Jesus knows His sheep before He calls them by name. They follow Him after He calls their names. It is not a "general call" to all the sheep in the pen. It is a specific call to specific sheep. He only calls His own sheep by name. They hear His voice, recognize it as the voice of their Master, and they follow Him.

Now how could you say that when I wasn't even born when Christ died??!!

First, the comment was not directed at you, personally. You asked where a certain line of thinking would take a person. That's what I meant.

God would not have changed me if I had not chosen Christ. Do you believe that?

I believe you would not have chosen Christ if God had not changed you. My belief means that I have responded to something God has done for me (grace in regeneration, faith and salvation). Your belief means God has responded to something you have done, by giving you regeneration and salvation. Is that grace? Is that unmerited favor? If God is responding to something you have done by your own will power, I don't see how that can be called the giving of grace (unmerited favor), since you obviously "merited" God's response by what you accomplished under your own power.

What have I really got if I am "regenerated" but have no "belief/faith?"

Regeneration always, without fail, leads to faith. There is no such thing as being regenerated and not having faith.

Basically, that is like saying that I was "regenerated" in infant baptism (which is precisely where this doctrine of "regeneration precedes faith" comes from) without being given faith yet --- that somehow I can kinda "ease into" faith as I grow.

Your analogy to baptismal regeneration is clearly flawed. As far as the history of regeneration preceding faith having its origins in infant baptism, I would like to see a link or two to prove that assertion.

However, in the OT, God was NOT Jesus.

Jesus has always existed as God the Son. When He took on flesh, Mary and Joseph named their child Jesus. The God of the O.T. is clearly one and the same as the Christ who took on flesh.

They could "know God and glorify Him and thank Him -- God the Father -- but they had no forgiveness in their spirits. God resided "WITH them" in tabernacles -- but couldn't reside "IN them" as Holy Spirit.

You are simply going to have to show scripture support for your doctrine that O.T. saints could not get forgiveness "in their spirits". And there are several places in the O.T. where Holy Spirit is said to come "upon" people. David even asked God not to remove His Spirit from him.

peace to youraying:

 

[Pastor Larry]

How are they different?

One is for salvation (which is why it is called saving faith) and the other is apparently for great works of faith on the part of believers.

Yeah, but if I repeat the truth

To repeat somethig, you have to say it the first time. You have yet to do that.

Let me give you an example --- do you have belief in the rapture or faith in it (Er ...I hope you have one or the other

)?

In the Bible, there is no difference. To believe something is to have faith.

You're probably right -- ALL election is "temporal." Well, except the Calvie use of the term.

Election to individual salvation is "before the foundation of hte world" which means it is not temporal.

I can see it might be "understanding" the words of scripture. I know we are both believers in something that appears to be scriptural.

What you believe on this particular topic does not even appear to be Scriptural.

 

[webdog]

Posts like this make me feel sad because it seems you give yourself glory, instead of giving all the glory to God.

Where do you get that? Me thinks you are listening to the calvinists a little too much, and their lame strawmen.

 

[DHK]

Posts like this make me feel sad because it seems you give yourself glory, instead of giving all the glory to God.

In both Islam and Calvinism everything is predetermined. Nothing is by choice. How does that give me any glory at all. I am what the Bible says: just a sinner worthy of nothing but God's condemnation--but to be eternally separated from Him in a place called Hell which will eventually be the Lake of Fire. The Psalmist said: "What is man that thou art mindful of him?" Why should God even care about me? I am but a speck of dust in his sight. He deserves all the glory; me? nothing.

However the Bible does teach we are saved by grace through faith.
It does not say that we are saved by grace through the faith of God. It is our faith that we must be saved by. Nowhere does it teach that God's faith saves us. Else we could not be saved at all. We are not robots to be forced into salvation. We must make a choice whether to receive Christ or reject him. God made us in His image and likeness, and part of that image was the ability to reason, think, and make choices.

The Bible is clear on this subject.
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
--It does not say: "he that believeth on him with the faith that God has given him is not condemned."

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
--It does not say: "He that believeth on the Son with the faith that God hath given him hath everlasting life."

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
--It does not say: "whosoever believeth with the faith that God gave shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
--It does not say: Believe with the faith that God has given you, on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
--It does not say "and believe in thine heart with the faith that God hath given you that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--It does not say "justified by faith that God gave, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
--It does not say "that ye may believe on the son of God with the faith that God has given you.

There is nothing in all of Scripture that teaches that it is God that gives us the faith. Nothing! We choose of our own accord whether or not to believe. Man chooses whether or not to receive Christ or reject Him. Which choice have you made? God knew before hand (his foreknowledge) which choice you would make, but he never forced it upon you. You still had to make the choice.

 

[Pastor Larry]

In both Islam and Calvinism everything is predetermined.

But for entirely different reasons and different ends. They have nothing in common.

Nothing is by choice.

Not in Calvinism.

However the Bible does teach we are saved by grace through faith.
It does not say that we are saved by grace through the faith of God. It is our faith that we must be saved by. Nowhere does it teach that God's faith saves us. Else we could not be saved at all. We are not robots to be forced into salvation. We must make a choice whether to receive Christ or reject him. God made us in His image and likeness, and part of that image was the ability to reason, think, and make choices.

You sound like a Calvinist, taking a page right out of our book.

The Bible is clear on this subject.

Yes it is. And Calvinists agree with everyone of these verses. I am not sure why you and others pull these verses out as if we disagree. Your attempt at Calvinistic rewording simply shows the depth of your misunderstanding.

There is nothing in all of Scripture that teaches that it is God that gives us the faith. Nothing!

We have already disproven that.

God knew before hand (his foreknowledge) which choice you would make, but he never forced it upon you. You still had to make the choice.

How does this prove your point? Even if God only knew beforehand (as opposed to choosing as the Bible teaches), you still have no choice but to do what God knows you will do.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

In both Islam and Calvinism everything is predetermined. Nothing is by choice.

You are very wrong.

From the Westminster Confession of Faith:
I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

 

[Rippon]

Where do you get that? Me thinks you are listening to the calvinists a little too much, and their lame strawmen.

You use the word strawman more than anyone else in the history of the BB . It's your favorite word apparently . But you have not been paying attention . Your side has been using false arguments all along against Calvinism . Your side has said over and over that in Calvinism :

Predestination is no different than Islamic fate

Particular redemption is a false gospel -- worthy of condemnation as described in Galatians 1:8,9

We worship John Calvin , not Jesus Christ

We insist that people are nothing but robots

We say that God forces people against their will to be saved



Those foolish charges are sinful .

Your side believes that faith is not given by God . Your side thinks that God may be aware of "your decision" regarding salvation -- God perhaps has gotten the memo .