God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?

[Dave...]

@Silverhair



Yeah it does, man is spiritually dead in trepasses and sins. Here is our walk as natural men Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Hi Bright

Yes, Eph 2:2-3, I agree, but it's important to note that this all begins at the receiving of the Holy Spirit as a result of faith. It's after the fact, not before. This goes to my point in the OP about Jesus being the Author and Finisher of our faith. We were dead in our trespasses and sin until we were given life in the Spirit. But that context should be taken after the fact of faith.

Paul in Galatians 3:3-4 says that we began being perfected when we received the Spirit as a result of faith. That would not be at odds with this passage in Ephesians. When we are placed into Him by receiving the Holy Spirit, that's when we are born again and justified. That's when life begins. But that happens as a result of faith. Look at Eph 2:1 "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,". We are made alive by receiving the Holy Spirit. That's when we die with Him, and are raised up with Him, born again. At that point we can live by the Spirit, and not the flesh. Being "in Christ" is the result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as a result of faith. That's called the baptism, the placing into with the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Baptizer. The Holy Spirit is the Agent of that baptism. It's what places us into Christ, the one true Church and gives us life. These are all speaking of Jesus baptizing us with the Holy Spirit, thus making us "in Him", and giving us life.

1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is *in Christ*, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (ESV)

What Does the Bible Say About New Life?

Bible verses about New Life

www.openbible.info

 

[Dave...]

@Dave...



False statement. All men are naturally totally depraved spiritually, without any ability to believe in Christ spiritually. Thats why Jesus said no man has the ability to come to Him, which means believe in Him unless the Father Draws them, which is omnipotent power at work Jn 6:44

I believe that I addressed that idea in the OP. The context. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. His Word in and of itself has the power to draw. Why did Jesus speak in parables? Because in seeing they might see, and hearing they might hear (Matthew 13:13, Mark 4:12). If they were dead and couldn't hear, see or believe as some would claim, then all that was unnecessary. Even the disciples didn't understand until Jesus explained the parables to them in plain language. And they already believed.

Hardened lest they should hear and see or perceive and believe is a common theme in the Bible. I've quoted a few verses. I can quote more. According to those passages, dead men can believe.

Dave

 

[Eternally Grateful]

to harden ones heart means to strengthen a person in what they believe

its not keeping the person from truth. It is continually speaking truth to them, so hearing they do not hear, and seeing they do not see.

so God is not keeping anything from anyone. No one will have an excuse on judgment day

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Yeah it does, man is spiritually dead in trepasses and sins. Here is our walk as natural men Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

BF it say "you were dead in your trespasses and sins" vs 1 in other words separated from God.

Then it continues " in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air," vs 2

It does not say they were totally depraved spiritually BF.

And did you forget what Paul wrote just a few verses before?

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

They do not sound like they could not respond as you seem to think.

 

[Silverhair]

"divine determinism" But then we can throw what is called compatibilism into the mix. Is God determinism at always at odds with mans decision making? Even the most staunch Calvinist believes that mans will and God's determinism are not at odds with each other, fighting for control, if you will. Joseph sold into slavery by his brothers. The same act, they meant it for evil, God meant it for good (Gen 50:20).

Dave

Compatibilism is just another name for divine determinism since it contends that a person can act freely even though that action is determined by God.

Hard determinism admits that because God determines all that happens, has unconditionally decreed all things ahead of time, human beings are not free; there is no free will.

Soft determinism / compatibilism holds that there is human free will and that we are free, but redefines freedom to mean that we do what we want even when God determines what we want and we cannot do otherwise. They say we are free since God determines what we desire, and then we do what we desire.
But since God has determined what we desire can we really call that free will?

 

[Van]

No its not nonsense, Its Truth. If one is never born anew, this is Gods indictment of them Rom 3:9-19

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

That goes for the young rich ruler to

Total denial of scripture. This is all they have, folks.
They say no lost person is able to seek God, scripture provides verse after verse showing the do.

 

[Van]

I'm leaning more towards taking that statement from Paul within the context of it being a judicial statement. That's what the context suggests, anyways. In other words, nothing from the flesh can pass any standard by God for good, or righteousness. It's all from the flesh and tainted with sin somewhere. But the sick can still desire a doctor. People who bottom out in sin are looking for the truth. What better time to hear the Gospel?

I'm also thinking that the Word of God has some power in and of itself. Faith does come by hearing. And the Word of God can go where the Holy Spirit cannot. In an unbeliever, at least not without the blood of Christ to cleanse the temple, that being us as a result of faith. That's one of the reasons why OT believers were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit. Anyways. That's another topic.

False teachers twist this passage and falsely claim it says no one ever understands, no one ever seeks out God, we always turn aside from the will of God, and we never actually do good. This false claim is absurd on its face. People sometimes will to be saved, Romans 9:16. People sometimes seek God, Romans 9:30-33. The rich young ruler was seeking eternal life, but was unwilling to turn loose of his worldly treasure.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but does no one seeks after God equal no one ever seeks after God. If you believe they are equal, rather than no one seeks after God when sinning, the contextual meaning, not much more I can say.

 

[Silverhair]

@Dave...



Yes they are the same Job 23:13-14

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

What God desires He doeth it, performeth it

So since according to you what ever God desires that is what He does.

So why are not all saved?
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It’s sad they would think God created evil

 

[Brightfame52]

Hi Bright

The same Jews who were hardened were also being provoked to jealousy to bring them to salvation. They were "broken off". But Paul says that the Gentiles being grafted in was to provoke them to jealously, so that they can be "grafted back in" if they do not continue in unbelief. vs. 27-33 goes on to say that God committed them all to disobedience, so that He might have mercy on them all.

For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

Like you stated, 1 Tim. 1:12-16 says that Paul was shown mercy because "but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.".

Dave

The jews who were harden are being punished, its over for them, however there was still a remnant according to the election of grace that would be brought to Faith like paul.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave...​

Hi Bright

Yes, Eph 2:2-3, I agree, but it's important to note that this all begins at the receiving of the Holy Spirit as a result of faith

False, Faith coms with quickening by grace. No faith while in nature Eph 2:2-3

 

[Brightfame52]

@Dave...

I believe that I addressed that idea in the OP. The context. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

hearing comes by living spiritually

 

[Brightfame52]

BF it say "you were dead in your trespasses and sins" vs 1 in other words separated from God.

Then it continues " in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air," vs 2

It does not say they were totally depraved spiritually BF.

And did you forget what Paul wrote just a few verses before?

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

They do not sound like they could not respond as you seem to think.

Being dead in sin and under the control of sin of the spirit of disobedience and total inability are one and the same

 

[Brightfame52]

Total denial of scripture. This is all they have, folks.
They say no lost person is able to seek God, scripture provides verse after verse showing the do.

As long as man is in nature Rom 3:9-19 describes them

 

[Brightfame52]

So since according to you what ever God desires that is what He does.

So why are not all saved?
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Those God desires to be saved, guess what ? Job 23:13-14

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

 

[Van]

Did Paul speak to people in their natural state using spiritual milk? Yes. 1 Corinthians 3:1

 

[Dave G]

He judicially hardens the hearts of men. What is implied in that statement is important. At one time their hearts were not as hardened. And that hardening was judicial, meaning that they earned it by rejecting the truth.

Read Romans 1, Romans 3, Psalms 10, Psalms 14.
It happened over time, but began in the Garden.

If they were that way naturally, then it would stand to reason that their hearts would not need to be hardened. In fact, in many of the passages that speak of this hardening, they also qualify that with 'lest they hear, and believe'.

I agree.
But this brings me to something I'd like to point out ( and something that I think you may have missed )....

The "Calvinist" doctrine of reprobation ( which is described as God both allowing and causing men's minds to be blinded to the truth ), is a part of the "Calvinist" doctrine of "Total Depravity".
In essence, according to Scripture, we as men are not only stubbornly unwilling to come to God in repentance...
All but His elect are essentially prevented from it.

Yes, it's a hard "pill" to swallow, but there it is.

Because of both of these factors, this unwillingness to come to God on our own, plus the fact that Satan blinds the minds of those who believe not ( 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ), they describe a situation that is termed as "total" in its affect.
I've seen this in my own studies over the years, and I was never raised as a "Calvinist";
Rather, I came to Christ during the preaching of God's word in 1978 and spent most of my time ( until 2007 ) in IB and IFB churches.

For 25 years I was in the dark about any of this, until I began to study the rest of the Scriptures.

 

[Dave G]

I understand a gradual hardening from sin. and I understand judicially (earned) hardening, but I don't understand why either is necessary if man is already as dead as he can be from birth.

Neither is "necessary"...but both are true because God says that they are.
I can also tell you from experience, that I wrestled with this very thing not all that many years ago.

That's what total depravity claims.

I think you may be missing what's being described in the details, my friend.

The term "Total Depravity" encompasses many factors gleaned from Scripture about us as men and our spiritual condition before the Lord gets a hold of any of us.
If you'll look carefully, the term is, in reality, a summary statement...
IMO, it wasn't meant to describe or address every detail that is involved.

May I make a suggestion?

Keep digging, my friend, keep studying .
Let this subject drive you deeply into the Scriptures to see if these things are so...and remember what Paul told Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:
The Lord has a lot to show each of us through His word, in addition to the fact that His people are "dull of hearing", and that study, over time, helps immensely to clear things up.

Try to completely ignore what both sides are saying about a given subject, and simply study it for yourself.

 

[Brightfame52]

Did Paul speak to people in their natural state using spiritual milk? Yes. 1 Corinthians 3:1

No the Corinthians were spiritual having the Spirit in them 1 Cor 6:19

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

They had been given the Spirit to know the things of God 1 Cor 2:12-13

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things[Salvation things] that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

 

[Silverhair]

Being dead in sin and under the control of sin of the spirit of disobedience and total inability are one and the same

Then why does God judge men for something that they have zero control over?

Remember it is your version of God that has determined all things BF. So He is judging men for what He has determined they will do.

You have a really strange religion there BF.