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God hardens hearts that He claims would otherwise believe. Is this total depravity?

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Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
The fruit of the Spirit comes when the Spirit does His Saving work Titus 3:5

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Then when regenerated and renewed by the Spirit, Faith is the fruit.
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BF you want to have people saved/regenerated before they believe. You have the cart before the horse.

Regeneration is to be made new.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

So when is one found in Christ BF, before or after they believe?

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Note you are saved after you call on Him.

Why would one call on Him?

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

And how do you call on Him, why do you call on Him and what is the outcome?

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

With the result?

Rom_8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

So what can we know about our salvation

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The bible is clear BF if you can get past your false religious view.

Joh 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
@Eternally Grateful



Thats false, a unbeliever first needs a new regenerated heart to understand the gospel and bring forth fruit, like faith Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Non of the other heaers are said to have heard and understandeth, but the good ground or heart hearer. The good ground/heart represents the new regenerated heart, otherwise mans natural heart is evil
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BF you are reading into the text what you need to find. The bible holds man responsible for the response he makes to the gospel message.

You have made God responsible as according to you He has to regenerate the person before they can believe. If that were truth then why is it that not everyone believes since His desire is for all to come to repentance. Also if He has to regenerate the person first then for those that are not regenerated have the best excuse possible for not believing, so why are they condemned for doing just what God determined for them to do.
 
B

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
BF you are reading into the text what you need to find. The bible holds man responsible for the response he makes to the gospel message.

You have made God responsible as according to you He has to regenerate the person before they can believe. If that were truth then why is it that not everyone believes since His desire is for all to come to repentance. Also if He has to regenerate the person first then for those that are not regenerated have the best excuse possible for not believing, so why are they condemned for doing just what God determined for them to do.
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Before one can believe with spiritual understanding, they first need to be made unto good ground. Thats salvation. Man in his unregenerated condition and heart is sinful, bad ground.

Study what good ground means by Jesus Matt 13:23


But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty

And remember man by nature his heart is deceitful and wicked Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
 
D

Darrell C

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Van said:
Just a brief note on Romans 3:11-13:
​

Romans 3:11-13 NASB ​

THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,​

THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS OUT GOD;​

​

THEY HAVE ALL TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME CORRUPT;​

THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,​

THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”​

​

“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,​

WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”​

“THE VENOM OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”; ​

While some uncertainty may exist, Paul seems to be using a quote or paraphrase of the Old Testament (Psalm 14?) and repurposes it under inspiration, to prove we are all sinners because at least part of the time, we do not understand, we do not seek God, we all have turned aside, as we are all corrupt, and we do not do good all the time, and this is true of everyone. Sometimes we do not watch our words, sometimes we deceive, and we thus poison those we influence.

False teachers twist this passage and falsely claim it says no one ever understands, no one ever seeks out God, we always turn aside from the will of God, and we never actually do good. This false claim is absurd on its face. People sometimes will to be saved, Romans 9:16. People sometimes seek God, Romans 9:30-33. The rich young ruler was seeking eternal life, but was unwilling to turn loose of his worldly treasure.
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Not sure how "Not even one" can be twisted. And since this is God's declaration, and reiterated by Paul, I think we can safely say the principle remains true age without end.

No man comes to the Lord unless the Lord draw him. No man understands the Gospel except the Holy Ghost ministers the truth of the Gospel to them.

Not even one.

God bless.
 
D

Dave...

Member
Silverhair said:
First what do you mean by theological consistency? Not a term I have seen batter around before.
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Some people come to Scripture with preconceived ideas and try to smash those ideas into the text. I've seen it at both ends of the theological spectrum. They try to define the Bible by the system, instead of the other way around. Like the idea that man is born again before He comes to faith. That Idea is smashed into the text because the system needs it, not because Scripture teaches it. It's an easy solution that appears to work very well at a glance, but in reality leaves ten times more theological problems than it fixes.

Silverhair said:
Second You made a factual error in this comment "The common mind set of the Arminian view is that unless God causes it, He cannot be sovereign over it.,"
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On the other end of the spectrum from the example given above, based on my experience, it's common in Arminian circles to start with the idea that if God is sovereign over it, He determines it, then man cannot truly have free will because it must be coercion. This idea doesn't come from Scripture, rather, it comes from humanism foundationally.

Silverhair said:
That is the C/R view as can be clearly seen in the WCF/LBCF. They are the ones that require God to determine all things and deny the actual free will of man.
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Sorry, I'm not up to date on these abbreviations. When you say free will, what are you claiming that we are free from and where does the Bible teach this?

Silverhair said:
As for your support of Compatibilism it does not describe biblical truths but it is the attempt of some to have it do so.

Compatibilism, in philosophy, [the C/R view] is the view that free will and determinism are compatible. It argues that even if all events are causally determined, including human actions, we can still have free will and be morally responsible for our choices. This perspective often involves redefining or reinterpreting what it means to have free will.

Compatibilism, despite what the name suggests, doesn’t reconcile free will and determinism. Compatibilism, at most, would explain why we feel like we’re free when we make our actions even though we’re determined. But it doesn’t actually let us affirm the two propositions; (A) Man is determined, and (B) Man is free. Why? Because on compatibilism, man still cannot choose between alternatives.
In other words you cannot choose anything except what you were determined {by God} to choose.

You can go to https://www.monergismDOTcom/topics/free-will/compatibilism if you think I have been unfair to that view.
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This is where I believe that you're mistaken. Compatibilism is not trying to solve the tension left in Scripture between mans moral responsibility and God's complete sovereignty over everything. It's only a theological term that recognizes both truths in Scripture. The Scripture that I provided, and the Biblical truths presented, were not trying to solve Biblical tensions, but were merely pointing to the fact that mans responsibility and God's sovereignty both exist very clearly in Scripture. Naturally (pun intended), humanism will always gnash it's teeth at God's sovereignty.
 
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Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Before one can believe with spiritual understanding, they first need to be made unto good ground. Thats salvation. Man in his unregenerated condition and heart is sinful, bad ground.

Study what good ground means by Jesus Matt 13:23


But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty

And remember man by nature his heart is deceitful and wicked Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
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Sorry BF but you are wrong again. You have been shown the truth so you have no excuse.
 
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Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Silverhair said:
Sorry BF but you are wrong again. You have been shown the truth so you have no excuse.
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Study what good ground means by Jesus Matt 13:23

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty

Whats the good ground represent ?
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Dave... said:
Some people come to Scripture with preconceived ideas and try to smash those ideas into the text. I've seen it at both ends of the theological spectrum. They try to define the Bible by the system, instead of the other way around.
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That is a common problem that we can see in any number of religious views.

Dave... said:
it's common in Arminian circles to start with the idea that if God is sovereign over it, He determines it, then man cannot truly have free will because it must be coercion.
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I would say that you have made a serious error in your thinking. It is not the Arminians but the C/R [Calvinist/Reformed] that fit the view you have given.
I am curious as to where you did get your idea from.

From what I have seen it is the Calvinist/Reformed that hold to the determinist view not the Arminian.

Calvin in his Institutes, Book 3, chapter 23, paragraph 6, says that, God foresees events because He had to make them determined. So what he’s saying is that God is really not omniscient, He only knows what He’s determined. God decreed absolutely everything that comes to pass, as per WCF/LBCF 3/1 "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity... all things, whatsoever comes to pass;".

Calvinists/Reformed insist that exhaustive divine determinism is the essential ingredient for divine omniscience. Calvinists believe that God knows everything because He has decreed everything, and if He hadn’t exhaustively decreed everything then He couldn’t infallibly know what will happen next, and if God didn’t infallibly know what will happen next, then He couldn’t have an exhaustive plan and purpose for everything that happens in the future.


Dave... said:
When you say free will, what are you claiming that we are free from and where does the Bible teach this?
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Free will is not claiming we are free from but that we are free to do something. In the biblical case we are free to choose to trust in or reject God.

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,... Jos_24:15

“How long will you waiver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him, but if Baal is god, follow him. 1Ki_18:21

You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me. Isa_65:12

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." Mar_1:15

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh_3:16-18

...if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom_10:9

The bible teaches free will fro beginning to end. The only other option is that God determines all things which would have to include all the evil and sin in the world.

Dave... said:
This is where I believe that you're mistaken. Compatibilism is not trying to solve the tension left in Scripture between mans moral responsibility and God's complete sovereignty over everything. It's only a theological term that recognizes both truths in Scripture. The Scripture that I provided, and the Biblical truths presented, were not trying to solve Biblical tensions, but were merely pointing to the fact that mans responsibility and God's sovereignty both exist very clearly in Scripture. Naturally (pun intended), humanism will always gnash it's teeth at God's sovereignty.
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God is sovereign and man has a God given free will so is morally responsible for the choices he makes and if that was how those of the C/R view treated the word "Compatibilism" it would not be a problem as it would then be scriptural.

I do not think any, non-calvinist/non-reformed, believer would have a problem with that view.

But that is not how we see those of the C/R view use the word is it. They say that a person can act freely even though that action is determined by God which is an illogical position to hold. How can one make a free will choice when that choice has been determined by God? Could the man have made a different choice than what had been determined by God?

Determinism and free will are not compatible. You can believe in determinism or free will, but not both. It is logically impossible to force someone to freely do something. Theologically, the loss of free will has a devastating impact of how we view God. If God determines everyone’s actions, how can he justly punish someone for doing something that God Himself determined them to do?
 
Silverhair

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Brightfame52 said:
Study what good ground means by Jesus Matt 13:23

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty

Whats the good ground represent ?
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A receptive mind.
Many will hear the gospel and reject it, not because they did not understand the words but because they did not like what the words pointed out to them about themselves.
 
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