God is absolute.

[Van]

If God is no respecter of persons, you had nothing to do with your damnation is Adam, or your subsequent salvation in Christ.

How many times must we be subjected to this canard? God gives grace to the humble, but opposes the proud, thus God's choices reflect His assessment of people.

 

[JonC]

For His glory. And that is part of Romans 9 and Ephesians 3...

Exactly! BUT why did God say He chose Israel specifically???

 

[1689Dave]

Exactly! BUT why did God say He chose Israel specifically???

Originally he chose from the same wicked lump sinners to glorify His mercy as Paul says. Much later in time, he developed a wicked nation from the reprobate called Israel. He gave them the Law under threat of death, to protect the few saved who glorified Him. Later he abandoned the wicked and made Israel believers only under Christ. The Church is Israel today. Nothing changed from elect sinners, redeemed by Christ to glorify His mercy to the Heavenly host.

 

[JonC]

Originally he chose from the same wicked lump sinners to glorify His mercy as Paul says. Much later in time, he developed a wicked nation from the reprobate called Israel. He gave them the Law under threat of death, to protect the few saved who glorified Him. Later he abandoned the wicked and made Israel believers only under Christ. The Church is Israel today. Nothing changed from elect sinners, redeemed by Christ to glorify His mercy to the Heavenly host.

I disagree. I understand why you would believe this, and even articulate it in this way.

But I believe you make a serious mistake in ascribing a "logical order" to the mind of God.

The reason is when you do this you reduce the mind of God to the mind of man and diminish the eternality of God. You present God as creating a "lump" of men and then randomly pulling from that "lump" for His purposes.

But God is Creator. God is eternal. God is sovereign. God is God.

He does not have to ponder human life. He does not have to rely on chance or arbitrary decisions. These are human qualities.

Perhaps we have to rely on human faults, like arbitrary actions, to understand God. But we need to understand that this is due to our finite minds rather than attribute the flaw to God.

God simply is not arbitrary.

I ask again- What reason did God give to Israel for their election? Why is it that this election glorified God rather than Israel?

 

[JonC]

Originally he chose from the same wicked lump sinners to glorify His mercy as Paul says. Much later in time, he developed a wicked nation from the reprobate called Israel. He gave them the Law under threat of death, to protect the few saved who glorified Him. Later he abandoned the wicked and made Israel believers only under Christ. The Church is Israel today. Nothing changed from elect sinners, redeemed by Christ to glorify His mercy to the Heavenly host.

What reason did God give for His election of Israel (not your opinion but Scripture)?

 

[1689Dave]

What reason did God say that He chose Israel?

As I said ...for His glory. His glory comes from many means. Israel is one of them. But his choice of who the saved and lost in Israel is purely arbitrary.

 

[JonC]

As I said ...for His glory. His glory comes from many means. Israel is one of them. But his choice of who the saved and lost in Israel is purely arbitrary.

Yes, for His glory. But what was God's reason (in Scripture) for specifically electing Isarel rather than another people?

 

[1689Dave]

I disagree. I understand why you would believe this, and even articulate it in this way.

But I believe you make a serious mistake in ascribing a "logical order" to the mind of God.

The reason is when you do this you reduce the mind of God to the mind of man and diminish the eternality of God. You present God as creating a "lump" of men and then randomly pulling from that "lump" for His purposes.

But God is Creator. God is eternal. God is sovereign. God is God.

He does not have to ponder human life. He does not have to rely on chance or arbitrary decisions. These are human qualities.

Perhaps we have to rely on human faults, like arbitrary actions, to understand God. But we need to understand that this is due to our finite minds rather than attribute the flaw to God.

God simply is not arbitrary.

I ask again- What reason did God give to Israel for their election? Why is it that this election glorified God rather than Israel?

OK, let's consider my usage of the word, as any scholar would. You are missing my point by not considering the use of the term. I used to vacation in the Colorado Rockies. One year I drove west on 80 and came to a fork. I could go to Yellowstone or Denver depending on what lane I was in. So I swerved from one lane to the other until I arbitrarily remained in the left lane and continued to Colorado. Try to distort this example.

 

[1689Dave]

Yes, for His glory. But what was God's reason (in Scripture) for specifically electing Isarel rather than another people?

All were reprobate except a small bunch kept safe in Israel.

 

[JonC]

OK, let's consider my usage of the word, as any scholar would. You are missing my point by not considering the use of the term. I used to vacation in the Colorado Rockies. One year I drove west on 80 and came to a fork. I could go to Yellowstone or Denver depending on what lane I was in. So I swerved from one lane to the other until I arbitrarily remained in the left lane and continued to Colorado. Try to distort this example.

I am not distorting the word. To use your illustration, God does not swerve. He does not pick between courses because He is eternal.

Our Creator knows His creation before He ever created.

 

[1689Dave]

I am not distorting the word. To use your illustration, God does not swerve. He does not pick between courses because He is eternal.

Our Creator knows His creation before He ever created.

You are distorting my definition of arbitrary. Of course, God does not swerve.

 

[JonC]

All were reprobate except a small bunch kept safe in Israel.

Again.....what did God tell Israel in Scripture? Why did God elect Israel for His glory?

Have you ever considered that God formed Israel for a specific purpose before Israel even existed?

 

[1689Dave]

Again.....what did God tell Israel in Scripture? Why did God elect Israel for His glory?

Have you ever considered that God formed Israel for a specific purpose before Israel even existed?

But Paul tells us the logical order. They came long after creation in the decree.

 

[1689Dave]

I am not distorting the word. To use your illustration, God does not swerve. He does not pick between courses because He is eternal.

Our Creator knows His creation before He ever created.

You are accusing me of implying God did the same as me on vacation. You know better than this. You must play with my words because you cannot defend your position with scripture.

 

[37818]

Deuteronomy 7:7-9, ". . . The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; . . ."
Hebrews 11:4-29 . . .

 

[JonC]

But Paul tells us the logical order. They came long after creation in the decree.

Let's look at the verse you are referencing.

Have you looked at the reason God gave to Israel yet?

 

[JonC]

You are accusing me of implying God did the same as me on vacation. You know better than this. You must play with my words because you cannot defend your position with scripture.

You have not offered Scripture supporting the idea God acts in an arbitrary way. I have provided Scripture.

You offered the illustration of your vacation. I an saying this is not how God operates.

 

[JonC]

@1689Dave

I understand why you believe God did not choose us because of some merit or redeeming quality in us. We agree here.

But I do not understand why you choose to ascribe God choosing to an arbitrary choice.

You can hold the exact same position without reducing God's actions to arbitrary decisions.

I pray you will at least consider the possibility that God is intentional in all of His works.

What I was getting at with Israel is there was nothing in them to draw God's love. They were not the strongest, they were the weakest. God set His love on them because He loved them. It was not arbitrary but rather centered on God Himself.

God owes us no explanation and that He provides none does not give us the right to chalk up His work as arbitrary.

 

[canadyjd]

If God is no respecter of persons, you had nothing to do with your damnation or your subsequent salvation.

Your theology is non-biblical. I earned damnation. The wages of sin is death. I chose rebellion and sin. I earned death. I earned rejection and separation from God.

I don’t get what I deserve because of God’s active and deliberate choice of me for salvation according to His purpose.

And, once again, you completely ignore the truth of scripture found in Romans. God didn’t make two people and then arbitrarily chose one for honorable use and one for common use. Scripture says He actively made them for His purpose. Nothing random, nothing arbitrary about God’s work.

No matter how many times you repeat the falsehood that God acts arbitrarily, you cannot change the truth found in scripture.

peace to you

 

[canadyjd]

OK, let's consider my usage of the word, as any scholar would. You are missing my point by not considering the use of the term. I used to vacation in the Colorado Rockies. One year I drove west on 80 and came to a fork. I could go to Yellowstone or Denver depending on what lane I was in. So I swerved from one lane to the other until I arbitrarily remained in the left lane and continued to Colorado. Try to distort this example.

God does not swerve back and forth, unable to make up His mind. He knows the end from the beginning and actively works to accomplish His specific purpose.

You have demonstrated JonC’s point. You are attributing to God human indecision.

peace to you