God is the Author of sin.

Dave Hunt, Norm Geisler, is that you?

:godisgood:

 

Strangely, I'm more than half a century old, and have been acquainted with too many Calvinists to count over the years, and until this board I have never heard anyone put forward the idea that God is the author of sin. I don't say that to doubt your experience, just to say that I don't think it's the usual one.

 

Buh huh huh huh huh...

Is God the author of confusion?

Who are the spirits of the prophets subject to?

 

Going way back to the beginning of the thread.

What we are arguing about is not whether Job's trouble came from the Lord, but rather the means by which Job's trouble came from the Lord. In this case, it came from the Lord by way of the Lord removing the hedge of protection he had placed around Job and his household, and giving Satan permission to use his power against everything Job had.

God unrestrained (removed the hedge) and permitted (“All right then, everything he has is in your power. . . ")

This falls short of proving that God is "the active agent in sinful acts in exactly the same way that he's the active agent in righteous acts."

• Different immediate agents—Satan in one, the Holy Spirit in the other.
• Different actions by God—unrestraining and permitting in one, inner urging or influence in the other.

 

Good question.

Moderators, I again ask why are you allowing such blatant blasphemy? What could be more contrary to Christianity than to say that God is the author of evil? Why are you allowing this? They're not just saying that God does things that don't feel good to us, they're saying that God causes evil. THIS IS HERESY.

At the very least, if you're going to allow this type of teaching, please move the Calvinism debate back to the public part of the board and out of the way of the Christians.

Please respond. Why is this teaching and these heretics allowed to remain?

 

To be more specific about where your analogy broke down: God is not like men, who are guilty by association when they order an evil act, since the one who orders the evil act does so with evil motives. It is impossible for man to order an evil act with good motives, even if he thinks he is doing so, because man cannot see the big picture results of his actions. God is not like men, and is able to work everything according to His righteous will, and it is clear that God's motives are always good and righteous.

That isn't the point of the passage you quoted. Paul did not question that the revelation came from God, but reprimanded the Corinthians for prophseying in a manner that caused confusion. They didn't take turns speaking, for example.

Was God in control of all that? Yes, certainly.

Let me address the why by asking you this. Can you honestly say God has never put tribulation in your life to teach you a lesson? I think everyone here, if they calmed down a moment, would gladly admit that God used evil to produce good in their lives. If we all agree on that, then why are we so anxious to separate God from the evil He works for good by chalking it up to his permissive will? Is not God's permissive will still His will?

God is sovereign, God is omnipotent, God is love, God [only] is good, only God has the ability to create evil in order to produce good and remain perfectly righteous and Holy in doing so. And who are you or I to say differently? "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"

 

Is God the author of confusion? (a simple yes or no will do)

 

A yes or no will NOT do, because the verse does not use the word author. That was added by an interpreter. More literally, it says God is not a God of disorder. So the correct question would be "Is God a God of disorder"? To which the answer would be "no".

 

hello?

Somebody please respond.

 

So, damning mankind for the very things God ordained is not disorder?

 

So, my copy of the Bible is wrong? God IS the author of confusion? He's not the God of disorder, but He is the author of confusion? Where do I get a correct copy of the word of God in English? I no longer wish to be in error.

 

I, for one, am not anxious to chalk these things up to God's permissive will. Both righteous acts and evil ones come about by his decretive will (or sovereign will)—both have the force of God's decretive will behind them. But God decrees not only the outcomes, but also the means by which those outcomes are accomplished, and the means by which God decrees to accomplish evil acts is different than the means by which he decrees to accomplish righteous ones. The means by which he brings evil acts is his unrestraining and permitting other agents (like Satan, like evil people) to act, and the means by which he accomplishes righteous acts is by the direct influence of his Spirit in the hearts of people.

 

Well, yes. It is wrong. Look at the Greek for yourself. There is no word "author" in there. It simply says "God is not of disorder". The expression "the author of" isn't even implied. The sentence is talking about what God is like, not about what God made.

 

What about the other two questions, Nathan, have you flown away again?

 

I agree with you that this is how God works in practice, because God Himself cannot lie, and God cannot sin (He cannot disobey Himself). So God MUST work through other agents to bring about evil acts. But they are still working according to His sovereign will.

Let me put it this way. I dislike the term "permissive will" only because it implies that someone is doing something against God's will, and God just shrugs His shoulders and says, "Oh, alright, I don't really want you to do that, but I'll let you do it, at least this time." That isn't at all what you are describing above, and it's not how I believe it works.

 

shame...............

 

Yes, exactly. But I think that distinguishes you from johnp in this discussion. Perhaps he will clarify, but I thought I asked whether God works in exactly the same way in the case of good deeds and evil deeds, and he answered yes.

 

Sorry if I'm missing something, but I only see one other question, or at least only one other question worth answering. "So, damning mankind for the very things God ordained is not disorder?"

No, it is not. It is in perfect accordance with God's will, and He has every right to do so since it is entirely His creation.

The same answer goes for the free-willers, by the way, unless you think it was impossible for God to create a sinless universe, or believe God was caught by surprise. No matter how you slice it, God's creation will end up with creatures in hell, and He created everything with that knowledge, and therefore foreordained it to be so. Even if free will were true, every human in hell would have the right to ask God, "If you knew in advance I would choose wrongly, then why did you allow me to exist?"

Or maybe I misunderstand your question. Are you suggesting God screwed up creation, and did so because He's confused?

 

Are you saying God IS the author of confusion?

If so, where do I get a correct version of the word of God in English?

Those are my questions. (Should only take you about 2-20 key strokes to answer)