God Loved the World (fallen mankind) in this way...

[Darrell C]

By removing the “portion,” it is not the removal of name, but of accounts and therefore basis for rewards.

One more time:

Revelation 3
King James Version (KJV)

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

The implication is that those who do not overcome will have their names blotted out.

Again, Romans 8 is a statement that bottling out cannot occur for the believer.

And I will clarify my view, because I think you may be misunderstanding it: all men are in the Book of Life, so it does not suggest believers will lose their salvation. Men are blotted out due to sin.

Historically a "book of life" recorded those living in a city, so in a general sense being in the book of life means one is alive. All men will be recorded in God's Book of the Living, because it will record all who have ever lived. The goal is to...remain in that book. And we can do that when we are made alive, as Christ taught, never to perish.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The death and resurrection of Jesus was, the faith, of Abraham.

So first show me where Abraham was told of Christ, His death, and His resurrection...that he might believe on Christ.

Then explain how Abraham had revealed to him something Paul teaches in numerous places was not revealed to men in past Ages.

Here is another passage that shows that:


Romans 16:25-26
King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Here's another:


Colossians 1:25-26
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

was to come. Gal 3:23-25

This...


Galatians 3:22-25
King James Version (KJV)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


...not only doesn't show Abraham was believing in the Risen Savior, but states just the opposite.

The name Jesus Christ would not be called upon until there was a man named Jesus Christ, Who would go to the Cross and die in the stead of sinners.

Secondly, we see that faith in Christ is distinguished from the Age of Law, and not present in it. Faith in Christ follows the Age of Law, when men were kept under the Law.

Hebrews 11:17-19 Abraham saw, the day of Christ,

This is true, but he did not have specific revelation. He trusted God that God would bless all families of the earth, and this through his seed. He understood that in a physical sense, thus knew that if he slew Isaac, God, of necessity, would have to resurrect him, so His promise would be fulfilled.

But, what Abraham did not receive was the Promises themselves. He received promise (when it was given, but did not receive them (in the sense of being fulfilled, though he has now received them after his death):

Heb 11:13
¶
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:39
¶
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Heb 11:40


God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Sorry, Bibliegateway has crashed (honest, I didn't do it...), so using Blue Letter.

The bottom line is that faith in the Old Testament was general, not specific to Christ and His Death and Resurrection. The disciples themselves did not expect him to die, but expected a physical fulfillment of the Prophecy. Here is an example:


Luk 24:17
¶
And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

Luk 24:18


¶
And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

Luk 24:19


¶
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

Luk 24:20


And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

Luk 24:21


But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.


The Mystery was not revealed until the Comforter was sent. Abraham did not trust in a Risen Savior prior to his death.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

One more time:




The implication is that those who do not overcome will have their names blotted out.

We have already overcame, due to now being in Christ!
Jesus overcame the world, sin. death. satan, and we do likewise being tied into Him!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The implication is that those who do not overcome will have their names blotted out.

In Christ, we have already overcome (Romans 8:37; 1 John 2:13b), and will overcome (Revelation 16:30). Those who do not overcome prove themselves never to have been Christ's (Matthew 7:23; Acts 8:21).

It may be a day or two before I can reply to your last post to me. I have a few things to do.

 

[Darrell C]

We have already overcame, due to now being in Christ!
Jesus overcame the world, sin. death. satan, and we do likewise being tied into Him!

This is how John, who penned Revelation, defines overcoming:


1 John 5:1-5
King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Overcoming is being born of God through faith in Jesus Christ.

Can we apply this to the "overcoming" of Revelation? I feel we can, because Scripture is consistent, and it is the same Writer. So essentially what Chrsit is saying in Revelation 3 is "He that is saved...I will never blot his name out of the Book of Life."

And the implication is that names are blotted from the Book of Life.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

In Christ, we have already overcome (Romans 8:37; 1 John 2:13b), and will overcome (Revelation 16:30).

That is true, however, Revelation 16:30 does not, in any way shape or form, say that we "will overcome."

Those who do not overcome prove themselves never to have been Christ's (Matthew 7:23; Acts 8:21).

Overcoming is being saved through faith in Christ. The Lord is basically saying those who place their faith in me, in the case of Revelation 3:5, never be blotted from the Book of Life.

It may be a day or two before I can reply to your last post to me. I have a few things to do.

Hey, if you respond at all I will be happy, so take your time brother.


God bless.

 

[Van]

So you've been made righteous, have you, Van? Sinless perfection? Or do you believe in the Roman catholic doctrine of imparted (as opposed to 'imputed') righteousness?
You were wrong on post #77 and you're wrong here. Look at the context.

Romans 5:18. 'Therefore, as through one man's offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.'

To 'justify' is to declare righteous (c.f. Proverbs 17:15; Isaiah 5:23 etc.).

Romans 5:19. 'For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience many will be [future tense] made righteous.' Whilst the Holy Spirit leads Christians in the paths of righteousness, and causes them increasingly to exhibit the fruit of the Spirit, we shall not be 'made righteous' until we leave behind this old sinful body at death or at the coming of the Lord Jesus.

Martin,please stop declaring unbiblical nonsense.

 

[Van]

Not sure if you are saying this is true or not.
Not sure if you are trying to say men are made righteous, rather than declared righteous.
That our righteousness is declared, rather than practical (from an eternal perspective, meaning, we still fall short of the glory of God even after saved in the temporal) would seem to be fairly basic.
God bless.

We are not declared righteous, we are made righteous by the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ.
Unless you can support your "declared righteous" assertion, by citing scripture, it is not fairly basic, it is false theology.

 

[Van]

It is a given that God loved fallen mankind in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.

But was this love unconditional, or did God require the fallen to "believe into Him" in order to receive salvation? So "salvation love" is not unconditional but conditional.

Therefore God's love provided the means of salvation to fallen mankind.
Then, for everyone believing into Him, God provides spiritual rebirth, with those whose faith is credited as righteousness, becoming "children of God" who are then loved as a member of God's family.

So the issue it seems to me is how does a worthless sinner "believe into Him?"

 

[Van]

God and God alone credits the faith of believers as righteousness.
Worthless sinners can receive and respond to the gospel.
God transfers those whose faith He credits as righteousness into Christ.
When God transfers individuals into Christ, they are made righteous, blameless, holy, and perfect, then indwelt forever.
This is the Good News

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin,please stop declaring unbiblical nonsense.

The pot calls the kettle black.

 

[agedman]

God and God alone credits the faith of believers as righteousness.

This is true, for the faith that is the believers is the gift of God. Therefore, the faith of believers is righteous and can be accountable to righteousness. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" Romans 10.

Worthless sinners can receive and respond to the gospel.

This is true, for all are sinners and condemned. They receive from God because He has granted them the ability to respond to the gospel. Remembering that faith is the gift given by hearing and hearing is granted by the Word of God (Jesus Christ is the Word), then Romans 9 states:

30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at thatlaw. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,​

God transfers those whose faith He credits as righteousness into Christ.

This is true. For Paul writes to the Colossians believers:

13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.​

When God transfers individuals into Christ, they are made righteous, blameless, holy, and perfect, then indwelt forever.

This is true. For Philippians 3 states:

20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
​

And in Romans 3 it states:

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.​

This is the Good News

1 Corinthians 15:

1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel (good news) I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel (good news) you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.​

 

[percho]

So first show me where Abraham was told of Christ, His death, and His resurrection...that he might believe on Christ.

Then explain how Abraham had revealed to him something Paul teaches in numerous places was not revealed to men in past Ages.

Here is another passage that shows that:


Romans 16:25-26
King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Here's another:


Colossians 1:25-26
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:




This...


Galatians 3:22-25
King James Version (KJV)

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


...not only doesn't show Abraham was believing in the Risen Savior, but states just the opposite.

The name Jesus Christ would not be called upon until there was a man named Jesus Christ, Who would go to the Cross and die in the stead of sinners.

Secondly, we see that faith in Christ is distinguished from the Age of Law, and not present in it. Faith in Christ follows the Age of Law, when men were kept under the Law.




This is true, but he did not have specific revelation. He trusted God that God would bless all families of the earth, and this through his seed. He understood that in a physical sense, thus knew that if he slew Isaac, God, of necessity, would have to resurrect him, so His promise would be fulfilled.

But, what Abraham did not receive was the Promises themselves. He received promise (when it was given, but did not receive them (in the sense of being fulfilled, though he has now received them after his death):

Heb 11:13
¶
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:39
¶
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Heb 11:40


God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Sorry, Bibliegateway has crashed (honest, I didn't do it...), so using Blue Letter.

The bottom line is that faith in the Old Testament was general, not specific to Christ and His Death and Resurrection. The disciples themselves did not expect him to die, but expected a physical fulfillment of the Prophecy. Here is an example:


Luk 24:17
¶
And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

Luk 24:18


¶
And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

Luk 24:19


¶
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

Luk 24:20


And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

Luk 24:21


But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.


The Mystery was not revealed until the Comforter was sent. Abraham did not trust in a Risen Savior prior to his death.


God bless.

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Who only has died and been resurrected not to see, again, death, that death no longer has dominion over him? Jesus of Nazareth. Therefore by God telling Abraham to kill his only son Isaac when he was only a youth the gospel was preached as explained in Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Isaac has not been raised from the dead. Who was received? Gal 3:16? Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I agree that Abraham probably knew nothing of Christ and or Jesus but he understood that death and resurrection were necessary for the blessings of God to come to fruition.

 

[agedman]

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Who only has died and been resurrected not to see, again, death, that death no longer has dominion over him? Jesus of Nazareth. Therefore by God telling Abraham to kill his only son Isaac when he was only a youth the gospel was preached as explained in Hebrews 11:17-19 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Isaac has not been raised from the dead. Who was received? Gal 3:16? Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

I agree that Abraham probably knew nothing of Christ and or Jesus but he understood that death and resurrection were necessary for the blessings of God to come to fruition.

Or perhaps he was skillful in understanding the presentation of salvation written in the constellations?

 

[Darrell C]

We are not declared righteous, we are made righteous by the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ.

Being that it is not our righteousness (for even being born again...we are not righteous according to the standard of God) we are declared to have, that makes it a declaration of the imputed righteousness of Christ.

We are being made righteous through Progressive Sanctification...


1 Thessalonians 5:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This refers to our temporal disposition, not out Positional Sanctification. We must continue, in this flesh, to be made Holy. I am not disagreeing that we "are made righteous" when we are born again, but, disagreeing that it is not imputed righteousness, from an eternal perspective.

Unless you can support your "declared righteous" assertion, by citing scripture, it is not fairly basic, it is false theology.

I've already supported it and as far as I know, you have never addressed it:


Romans 3:22
King James Version (KJV)

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:


It is still the righteousness of God, Van, which by faith is unto all and upon all...who believe.

It is the same way righteousness was imputed to Abraham, by faith. You will see both points in the following passages:



Romans 4:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.



Romans 4:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;


Imputed through faith in Jesus Christ, not because one is righteous of himself.

A few more:


Romans 5:17
King James Version (KJV)

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


1 Corinthians 1:30
King James Version (KJV)

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:


2 Corinthians 5:21
King James Version (KJV)

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Philippians 3:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


Hebrews 11:7
King James Version (KJV)

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.


Scripture is consistent. Imputed righteousness is by faith, and that implies to all Ages.


God bless.

 

[Van]

[God and God alone credits the faith of believers as righteousness.]
This is true, for the faith that is the believers is the gift of God. Therefore, the faith of believers is righteous and can be accountable to righteousness. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" Romans 10.

If we were given the gift of faith it would already be righteous and there would be no need to credit it as righteousness. No, it is our worthless faith that God credits (or not) as righteousness.

[Worthless sinners can receive and respond to the gospel.] This is true, for all are sinners and condemned. They receive from God because He has granted them the ability to respond to the gospel. Remembering that faith is the gift given by hearing and hearing is granted by the Word of God (Jesus Christ is the Word), then Romans 9 states:

30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,​

No verse or passage says God grants the "ability" to respond to the gospel. Rather God hardens the hearts of some to prevent them from hearing and understanding the gospel, the exact opposite of your false theology.​

[God transfers those whose faith He credits as righteousness into Christ.] [This is true. For Paul writes to the Colossians believers:

13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.​

We agree completely, a rare occurrence!!​

[When God transfers individuals into Christ, they are made righteous, blameless, holy, and perfect, then indwelt forever.] This is true. For Philippians 3 states:

20For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.​

This verse (Philippians 3:20) is referring to Christ's second coming and the redemption of our physical bodies. Those of us "in Christ" have already been made spiritually righteous, blameless, holy and perfect through the blood of the Lamb

Colossians 1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

Colossians 3:12
So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, ​

​

 

[Van]

Being that it is not our righteousness (for even being born again...we are not righteous according to the standard of God) we are declared to have, that makes it a declaration of the imputed righteousness of Christ.

We are being made righteous through Progressive Sanctification....

Not one verse says were were declared righteous, not one. Romans 4 says God credits our faith as righteousness, but that does not make us righteous. We are made righteous through the blood of the Lamb. See post 116.

 

[agedman]

If we were given the gift of faith it would already be righteous and there would be no need to credit it as righteousness. No, it is our worthless faith that God credits (or not) as righteousness.

No verse or passage says God grants the "ability" to respond to the gospel. Rather God hardens the hearts of some to prevent them from hearing and understanding the gospel, the exact opposite of your false theology.​

We agree completely, a rare occurrence!!​

This verse (Philippians 3:20) is referring to Christ's second coming and the redemption of our physical bodies. Those of us "in Christ" have already been made spiritually righteous, blameless, holy and perfect through the blood of the Lamb

Colossians 1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

Colossians 3:12
So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

Hebrews 12:23
to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, ​

Well, I tried to show at least partial agreement.

In another place on the BB I read a post of the use of “in” rather than “of” along with the word faith.

Some translators use “of” others “in”.

The KJV, for example, uses “of” while the NASB uses “in”.

Which one is correct?

Imo, the answer is both, because the concept of the faith of Christ being ours in which we believe in Christ is what is presented in such passages as Romans 10.

17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
​

And again expresses by Paul in Galatians 2:

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.​

And again in James 2:

1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.​

Again, it is agreed that other translations may use “in” in those verses where the KJV uses “of.” However, the principle still holds true. The faith of the Lord Jesus Christ within the believer is expressed as faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

This is consistent with the presentation of 2 Corinthians 13:

5Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

Should you allow for that single modification, you would no doubt find far more agreement with both Scriptures and posters on the B.B.

 

[percho]

Or perhaps he was skillful in understanding the presentation of salvation written in the constellations?

He or maybe Job.

 

[Darrell C]

Not one verse says were were declared righteous, not one. Romans 4 says God credits our faith as righteousness, but that does not make us righteous. We are made righteous through the blood of the Lamb. See post 116.

This is true. I gave quite a few more than one.


God bless.