God Loved the World (fallen mankind) in this way...

[Darrell C]

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 16:13,14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.


9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Just my understanding.

It would help if you provided what your understanding actually is. None of the Scriptures provided are in conflict with my statement, and you do not elaborate on what point it is you want to make.

The issue is how does the natural man believe.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1st where in scripture is this phrase found? righteousness of Christ

2 Peter 1:1. '....To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.' All modern versions read the same. The KJV has something different, but that it because Granville Sharp did not produce his famous rule until the late 18th Century.

 

[Darrell C]

To put it in theological categories: regeneration precedes faith.

In Reformed Theology yes. In Scripture, no.

First I would ask if you believe there is a chance that the one saved (according to the first definition you give/quote) can ultimately not receive the two second processes you give/quote? In other words do you believe those born again can lose their salvation?

I agree that the natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God and has therefore no ability within him to produce saving faith, because only the Gospel of Christ results in regeneration and the natural man cannot understand and respond to the Gospel of Christ. I hope to address both issues (natural man having faith and born again believers being saved yet still being saved, or in other words, the possibility of believers being ultimately lost) in this post, the former relevant to you, and the latter yet undecided until you state whether you believe salvation in Christ can be lost.

First I would point out to the first people who heard the Gospel of Christ, that is, the Disciples of Christ during His earthly Ministry. They did not believe the Gospel. Example:




Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


The declaration of the Gospel by Christ is in red, Peter's rejection of the Gospel in red. The disciples at this point were still part of the Age of Law and therefore not privy to the Gospel Mystery, which was not yet revealed to men, and would not be until the Comforter came:


Romans 16:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

(here is a word search of mystery on Bibliegateway or your favorite Bible program to see more verses of the Mystery of the Gospel(Strong's is great too))



John 15:25-27
King James Version (KJV)

25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



John 16:12-14
King James Version (KJV)

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


The Promise of God in the Old Testament was to put His Spirit in His People:



Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


This is the promise also of Regeneration (cleansing, new heart, new spirit).

Christ makes it clear that the disciples have not yet been Baptized with the Holy Ghost on the day of His Ascension, and points out that they will, when immersed into God, receive the Promise of the Father which He (Christ) taught them about:


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


And when they receive the Spirit sent by the Lord they will then understand the Gospel and immediately begin preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ (whereas they preached the Gospel of the Kingdom formerly, under His Ministry):



Acts 1:6-8
King James Version (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.



Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

We know from John 16:7 that the Spirit would not come until Christ had returned to Heaven. And when He came we know that believers began to be reconciled to God, immersed into Him in eternal union. We see that when we are in Christ we are in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and He in us:

The Spirit and Son:

John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

The Father and Son:

John 14:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Note in 14:16 that, contrasting His Own departure with the Coming of the Comforter, the Lord states He would be with them/us forever. One thing we should take careful note of is that the Disciples are not in God at this time, and it will not be until after Christ returns to Heaven, sends the Comforter, and begins baptizing with the Holy Ghost...

...that we can see the disciples born again believers who understand the Gospel.

All that to say this: it is the Comforter that brings understanding to the natural man, who then responds. Due to man's proclivity for rebellion, we can understand Christ's statements that few will be saved, many lost.

And just to touch on losing salvation, with an added aspect of natural man's ability to understand, we see in several verses that unbelievers can have a knowledge of the truth, the Gospel, and reject it:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


In view is not a description of a Christian falling away, but a comparison between those who rejected God's will under the (Covenant of) Law, and those who reject God's will at this point in time. Note they reject the Son of God, Jesus Christ, the Covenant and the Sacrifice that sanctified Him (viewing His Sacrifice as unholy), and resisted the Holy Spirit (Comforter).

Those who reject God's efforts in this Age will be held to a more severe degree of punishment than those who rejected the Law (Moses' Law) because they are rejecting God HImself, for it is God that enlightens the natural man and allows him to understand the truth of the Gospel.

One more passage to show those who were destined for the mists of darkness (Eternal Separation) knowing the truth and rejecting:


2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


If you keep this chapter in its context there is no way to make this born again believers, they are the New Testament equivalent of the Old Testament False Prophet, certainly not men belonging to God. Secondly, the parallel passage of Jude makes it clear these men never had a chance of salvation, they were predestined for Eternal Separation.

Thus Regeneration is an impossibility because we do have record of men understanding and then turning away/rejecting the Truth. This understanding came through the Ministry of God, as He convicts unbelievers of sin (that they are sinners), righteousness (that they are not, and Jesus Christ is), and judgment (that they are destined for eternal separation). If men were regenerated, born again, in order to have faith, then we must reject Scripture as a whole, because that would mean that Scripture teaches two distinctly different Doctrines concerning Eternal Salvation. In other words, Scripture would then be found to hold contradictions, because in many passages we are taught that Eternal Salvation is in fact eternal, and has no end.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

We know from John 16:7 that the Spirit would not come until Christ had returned to Heaven. And when He came we know that believers began to be reconciled to God, immersed into Him in eternal union. We see that when we are in Christ we are in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and He in us:

The Spirit and Son:

John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

The Father and Son:

John 14:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Note in 14:16 that, contrasting His Own departure with the Coming of the Comforter, the Lord states He would be with them/us forever. One thing we should take careful note of is that the Disciples are not in God at this time, and it will not be until after Christ returns to Heaven, sends the Comforter, and begins baptizing with the Holy Ghost...

...that we can see the disciples born again believers who understand the Gospel.

All that to say this: it is the Comforter that brings understanding to the natural man, who then responds. Due to man's proclivity for rebellion, we can understand Christ's statements that few will be saved, many lost.

And just to touch on losing salvation, with an added aspect of natural man's ability to understand, we see in several verses that unbelievers can have a knowledge of the truth, the Gospel, and reject it:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


In view is not a description of a Christian falling away, but a comparison between those who rejected God's will under the (Covenant of) Law, and those who reject God's will at this point in time. Note they reject the Son of God, Jesus Christ, the Covenant and the Sacrifice that sanctified Him (viewing His Sacrifice as unholy), and resisted the Holy Spirit (Comforter).

Those who reject God's efforts in this Age will be held to a more severe degree of punishment than those who rejected the Law (Moses' Law) because they are rejecting God HImself, for it is God that enlightens the natural man and allows him to understand the truth of the Gospel.

One more passage to show those who were destined for the mists of darkness (Eternal Separation) knowing the truth and rejecting:


2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


If you keep this chapter in its context there is no way to make this born again believers, they are the New Testament equivalent of the Old Testament False Prophet, certainly not men belonging to God. Secondly, the parallel passage of Jude makes it clear these men never had a chance of salvation, they were predestined for Eternal Separation.

Thus Regeneration is an impossibility because we do have record of men understanding and then turning away/rejecting the Truth. This understanding came through the Ministry of God, as He convicts unbelievers of sin (that they are sinners), righteousness (that they are not, and Jesus Christ is), and judgment (that they are destined for eternal separation). If men were regenerated, born again, in order to have faith, then we must reject Scripture as a whole, because that would mean that Scripture teaches two distinctly different Doctrines concerning Eternal Salvation. In other words, Scripture would then be found to hold contradictions, because in many passages we are taught that Eternal Salvation is in fact eternal, and has no end.


God bless.

Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit that enables the lost sinner to be able to now respond to jesus and use the saving faith granted to them by the Holy spirit now to be born again, and salvation will be fully completed when the body glorification happens at time of the Second Coming!

 

[Darrell C]

Regeneration is the work of the Holy Spirit that enables the lost sinner to be able to now respond to jesus and use the saving faith granted to them by the Holy spirit now to be born again,

Great. Now show me that in Scripture.

and salvation will be fully completed when the body glorification happens at time of the Second Coming!

Show me this in Scripture as well.

Only the Tribulation Saints are glorified (implied by the duration of their reign with Christ, Revelation 20:4-6) when Christ returns. Those who live through the Tribulation are those who populate the Millennial Kingdom and produce the unbelieving offspring that joins ranks with Satan (when he is released from the Pit).

Salvation will be complete for the Church (in regards to glorification) at the Rapture, which of necessity must take place prior to the end of the Tribulation, or at least prior to the middle of the Tribulation (ass no-one but the Two Witnesses are said to be raptured at the mid-point of the Tribulation.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Great. Now show me that in Scripture.



Show me this in Scripture as well.

Only the Tribulation Saints are glorified (implied by the duration of their reign with Christ, Revelation 20:4-6) when Christ returns. Those who live through the Tribulation are those who populate the Millennial Kingdom and produce the unbelieving offspring that joins ranks with Satan (when he is released from the Pit).

Salvation will be complete for the Church (in regards to glorification) at the Rapture, which of necessity must take place prior to the end of the Tribulation, or at least prior to the middle of the Tribulation (ass no-one but the Two Witnesses are said to be raptured at the mid-point of the Tribulation.


God bless.

God grants to those who are to get saved new hearts and minds, for he opened up the hearts and mind of Lydia in Acts when paul preached, correct?
And those who are alive at the second coming event will be risen with glorified bodies, correct?

 

[Darrell C]

God grants to those who are to get saved new hearts and minds, for he opened up the hearts and mind of Lydia in Acts when paul preached, correct?

The "new heart" and "new mind" and the "new spirit," for that matter, are the result of being immersed into God in eternal union, or in other words, we are born again and are therefore "new creatures" as a result of being indwelt by God.

The OP was looking more at the ability/inability of the natural man to have faith. Its a centuries old debate, one side saying natural man can hear the Gospel, understand, and place saving faith in Christ, the other side saying "No, natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God, so God must regenerate men so they can have saving faith."

Both are wrong, in my view, and I have presented my view in the preceding posts. The Comforter ministers to natural men/women and enlightens their minds to the truth of the Gospel, and men respond, either receiving the truth or rejecting. That does not mean that they are made regenerate during this ministry. And I think if most of us look back we can see that the process of our own conversions were not instantaneous, but there was a period where we came under conviction until that day we acknowledged the truth and pleaded (in my own case) with God to forgive us and save us.

And those who are alive at the second coming event will be risen with glorified bodies, correct?

No, only those who die during the Tribulation are glorified when Christ returns. There is a difference between the Rapture taught by Paul, where the entire Church is resurrected physically (first the dead in Christ and then we which remain alive, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), and the Second Coming of Christ (Revelation 19). When Christ returns He will destroy the unbelieving from among the population (the Sheep and Goat judgment, Matthew 25), and those who are believing, who were born again during the Tribulation, are those who enter into the Millennial Kingdom that Christ establishes when He returns. I think we see in Daniel 12 a 75 day period where this establishment of the Kingdom takes place. Satan is bound for one thousand years when Christ Returns, and this at the time He returns, which gives roughly 75 days at the end of the Millennial Kingdom for Satan to once again gather unbelievers under him. These unbelievers will be destroyed, along with Satan, and at that point God causes this Creation to pass out of existence, the Great White Throne Judgment takes place, and the new heavens and Earth are created (Revelation 20-21).

So those alive at the Second Coming will be physical, born again believers, who enter the Kingdom promised to Israel, though for the benefit of all families of the earth.

This speaks of the physical destruction of unbelievers when Christ returns...


Luke 17:24-37
King James Version (KJV)

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.


The context deals with the Second Coming.

The next passage defines what is going to happen, and we see it is a matter of physical judgment, for those are the examples it is said to be like:


26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.


Just as in the days of Noah and Lot unbelievers were destroyed physically, even so when the Son of Man returns, so too will the unbelievers be destroyed.

The next passage is a statement of specificity as to the fate of the unbelievers:


33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


The "eagles" are carrion fowl. When Christ makes this same statement as recorded by Matthew we see...


Matthew 24:27-28
King James Version (KJV)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Again, this is a separate event from the Rapture, and again, only the Tribulation Martyrs are glorified when Christ returns:



Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


And I will throw in that the "first" in First Resurrection is protos, and can mean both first in a sequential context, but here means "first" in a context of rank. There are only two resurrections taught in Scripture, the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto damnation. That is the context of first here, because we know it is not the first in sequence, seeing we have First the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Firstborn from the dead, then we have the Rapture, then we have the Two Witnesses (Revelation 11), then we have the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

The "new heart" and "new mind" and the "new spirit," for that matter, are the result of being immersed into God in eternal union, or in other words, we are born again and are therefore "new creatures" as a result of being indwelt by God.

The OP was looking more at the ability/inability of the natural man to have faith. Its a centuries old debate, one side saying natural man can hear the Gospel, understand, and place saving faith in Christ, the other side saying "No, natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God, so God must regenerate men so they can have saving faith."

Both are wrong, in my view, and I have presented my view in the preceding posts. The Comforter ministers to natural men/women and enlightens their minds to the truth of the Gospel, and men respond, either receiving the truth or rejecting. That does not mean that they are made regenerate during this ministry. And I think if most of us look back we can see that the process of our own conversions were not instantaneous, but there was a period where we came under conviction until that day we acknowledged the truth and pleaded (in my own case) with God to forgive us and save us.





No, only those who die during the Tribulation are glorified when Christ returns. There is a difference between the Rapture taught by Paul, where the entire Church is resurrected physically (first the dead in Christ and then we which remain alive, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), and the Second Coming of Christ (Revelation 19). When Christ returns He will destroy the unbelieving from among the population (the Sheep and Goat judgment, Matthew 25), and those who are believing, who were born again during the Tribulation, are those who enter into the Millennial Kingdom that Christ establishes when He returns. I think we see in Daniel 12 a 75 day period where this establishment of the Kingdom takes place. Satan is bound for one thousand years when Christ Returns, and this at the time He returns, which gives roughly 75 days at the end of the Millennial Kingdom for Satan to once again gather unbelievers under him. These unbelievers will be destroyed, along with Satan, and at that point God causes this Creation to pass out of existence, the Great White Throne Judgment takes place, and the new heavens and Earth are created (Revelation 20-21).

So those alive at the Second Coming will be physical, born again believers, who enter the Kingdom promised to Israel, though for the benefit of all families of the earth.

This speaks of the physical destruction of unbelievers when Christ returns...


Luke 17:24-37
King James Version (KJV)

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.


The context deals with the Second Coming.

The next passage defines what is going to happen, and we see it is a matter of physical judgment, for those are the examples it is said to be like:


26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.


Just as in the days of Noah and Lot unbelievers were destroyed physically, even so when the Son of Man returns, so too will the unbelievers be destroyed.

The next passage is a statement of specificity as to the fate of the unbelievers:


33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.


The "eagles" are carrion fowl. When Christ makes this same statement as recorded by Matthew we see...


Matthew 24:27-28
King James Version (KJV)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Again, this is a separate event from the Rapture, and again, only the Tribulation Martyrs are glorified when Christ returns:



Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version (KJV)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


And I will throw in that the "first" in First Resurrection is protos, and can mean both first in a sequential context, but here means "first" in a context of rank. There are only two resurrections taught in Scripture, the resurrection unto life, and the resurrection unto damnation. That is the context of first here, because we know it is not the first in sequence, seeing we have First the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Firstborn from the dead, then we have the Rapture, then we have the Two Witnesses (Revelation 11), then we have the resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs.


God bless.

There is no rapture event though, as at the Second Coming, all who are alive and in Christ are raised up in glorified bodies now.

 

[Van]

Unconditional election.
John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Non-germane, no one said God does not do the electing according to His will.

Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

Non-germane, no one said God does not do the electing according to His will.

[quote[ Ephesians 1:4-5 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,[/quote] Non-germane, No one said God did not choose us corporately before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him, or that God did not predestine those chosen to be adopted at Christ's second coming.

Revelation 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Names were not written and others presumably written since the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Non-germane, no one said God has not chosen individuals for salvation from the salvation of the world.

Romans 9:11-13 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Non-germane, no one said God did not elect Esau to serve Jacob based on the condition Esau was older.

Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Non-germane, no one said salvation does not depend on God alone.

Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Non-germane, no one said God does not do the electing.

Romans 10:20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say,
“I have been found by those who did not seek me;
I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.”

Non-germane, no one said God does not show Himself with His creation and with His actions and with His words.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, 29 so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

Non-germane no one said God did not choose individuals during their lifetime for salvation.

2 Timothy 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,

Non-germane, no one said God's redemption plan, formulated before the ages began, did not bestow grace upon those in Christ Jesus.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Non-germane, no one said those who took the direction given by Paul in His gospel presentation, did not believe into eternal life.

1 Peter 2:8 8 and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Non-germane, no one said that those who are disobedient to the Word are not destined to doom.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Non-germane, no one said that Jesus would lose anyone given to Him for salvation.

Romans 8:28-29 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Non-germane, no one said God's redemption plan did not include predestining those chosen to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Bottom line, a ration of scripture was cited that provided no answer to the question, how does a worthless sinner believe into Him?

 

[Darrell C]

There is no rapture event though, as at the Second Coming, all who are alive and in Christ are raised up in glorified bodies now.

Sorry, but there is no Rapture recorded in the events of Revelation apart from the rapture of the Two Witnesses (Revelation 11). If you would care to produce the Scripture we can talk about it.


God bless.

 

[Van]

It is a given that God loved fallen mankind in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.

But was this love unconditional, or did God require the fallen to "believe into Him" in order to receive salvation? So "salvation love" is not unconditional but conditional.

Therefore God's love provided the means of salvation to fallen mankind.
Then, for everyone believing into Him, God provides spiritual rebirth, with those whose faith is credited as righteousness, becoming "children of God" who are then loved as a member of God's family.

So the issue it seems to me is how does a worthless sinner "believe into Him?"

 

[Darrell C]

It is a given that God loved fallen mankind in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son so that everyone believing into Him would not perish but have eternal life.

But was this love unconditional, or did God require the fallen to "believe into Him" in order to receive salvation? So "salvation love" is not unconditional but conditional.

Therefore God's love provided the means of salvation to fallen mankind.
Then, for everyone believing into Him, God provides spiritual rebirth, with those whose faith is credited as righteousness, becoming "children of God" who are then loved as a member of God's family.

So the issue it seems to me is how does a worthless sinner "believe into Him?"

Its very simple, God reveals the truth and the reaction is belief. That does not mean that belief always results in salvation, because men are inclined to reject truth.

If a doctor told you you were dying of cancer, and showed you pictures of the cancer, you will likely believe him, right? Its not something you draw from your own ability, its just a reaction to information you are given.

That is what Christ is speaking of here:


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


It is a process of being enlightened. God is still giving light to every man that comes into the world. The only difference is now it is the Gospel of Christ being revealed directly to men by God.


God bless.

 

[Van]

Its very simple, God reveals the truth and the reaction is belief. That does not mean that belief always results in salvation, because men are inclined to reject truth.

If a doctor told you you were dying of cancer, and showed you pictures of the cancer, you will likely believe him, right? Its not something you draw from your own ability, its just a reaction to information you are given.

That is what Christ is speaking of here:
John 16:7-9
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

It is a process of being enlightened. God is still giving light to every man that comes into the world. The only difference is now it is the Gospel of Christ being revealed directly to men by God. God bless.

In summary, we must respond appropriately to God's enlightenment. But does God's "general revelation" (apparent in what God has made) provide all that is needed, or do we need the "special revelation" provided through God's Word. If we see Him, high and lifted up (Christ dying for us on the cross) and respond with our commitment to trust fully in Him alone for our salvation, would God credit our simple love and devotion to us as righteousness, or do we more?

 

[Darrell C]

In summary, we must respond appropriately to God's enlightenment.

Correct.

But does God's "general revelation" (apparent in what God has made) provide all that is needed, or do we need the "special revelation" provided through God's Word.

I would say no, because it is only through belief in Christ that men are reconciled to God. Prior to the Cross men were justified by grace through faith, but this should not be equated to New Covenant Provision, because though justified those who died prior to the Cross remained in need of Eternal Redemption:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Again we go back to you first statement, it must be a proper response to the revelation of God, as Paul teaches here:


Romans 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

So while this might sound heretical to the typical Baptist, I think we see general principles which show men have hope even though they have not had the chance to receive Christ in this Age. They will be judged, according to Paul above, according to their response to the revelation they have. Here, Gentiles not privy to the Law still performed the works of the Law which God wrote on their hearts. I think will stand at the Great White Throne (referring to those in this Age, I believe those Justified in the Old Testament have already gone to be with the Lord) and they will be judged according to the Books (the Word of God).

If we see Him, high and lifted up (Christ dying for us on the cross) and respond with our commitment to trust fully in Him alone for our salvation, would God credit our simple love and devotion to us as righteousness, or do we more?

Our being declared righteous is based on our faith in Christ. While we do see that righteousness varies from a temporal perspective (and that rewards vary for believers), we cannot impose that into a salvific context, because nothing we have done, or will do...

...contributes to salvation in Christ.

We are saved because He died in our stead, and God commands all men to believe on Him, and specifically that God has accepted Christ's death on our behalf. God initiates our salvation through the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, Who convicts us of sin, and enlightens our minds to the truth of the Gospel. Our response to that is reactionary, it is not something we attribute to a quality or ability we were conceived and born with. No more than someone reacting in fear because they just found out they have cancer and will die in four weeks invokes ability to react with fear.


God bless.

 

[Van]

But does God's "general revelation" (apparent in what God has made) provide all that is needed, or do we need the "special revelation" provided through God's Word.

I would say no, because it is only through belief in Christ that men are reconciled to God.

And I would say yes!!

So while this might sound heretical to the typical Baptist, I think we see general principles which show men have hope even though they have not had the chance to receive Christ in this Age. They will be judged, according to Paul above, according to their response to the revelation they have.

They are condemned already due to unbelief, all we are talking about here is the content of their punishment. For some, the punishment will be more tolerable than for others.

Our being declared righteous is based on our faith in Christ.

What verse says we were "declared righteous?"
Romans 5:19
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

We are saved because He died in our stead, and God commands all men to believe on Him, and specifically that God has accepted Christ's death on our behalf.

Only where God and God alone transfers those of His choosing into Christ, are they saved, made righteous, indwelt forever.

 

[Darrell C]

So while this might sound heretical to the typical Baptist, I think we see general principles which show men have hope even though they have not had the chance to receive Christ in this Age. They will be judged, according to Paul above, according to their response to the revelation they have.[QUOTE/]

They are condemned already due to unbelief, all we are talking about here is the content of their punishment. For some, the punishment will be more tolerable than for others.

Read it again:

Romans 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

The point is that men will be judged according to their response to the will revealed to them.

Not having the Law, these Gentiles performed the work of the Law.

They will stand before Christ and be judged. If you look at v.12 there is a distinction between those who will perish and those who will be judged. So rather than taking the position that those who have not heard and embraced the Gospel of Christ will go to Hell, I take the position that if that were true...

...every Old Testament Saint is going to Hell.

And we know that isn't true.

What verse says we were "declared righteous?"
Romans 5:19
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Are you answering your own question?

It also states it here:


Romans 3:22
King James Version (KJV)

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Only where God and God alone transfers those of His choosing into Christ, are they saved, made righteous, indwelt forever.

Good thing for us that God so loved the World and is not willing that any should perish that every man and woman benefits from the grace of God, and has opportunity to be obedient to His will, thus to be saved.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

And I would say yes!!

They are condemned already due to unbelief, all we are talking about here is the content of their punishment. For some, the punishment will be more tolerable than for others.

What verse says we were "declared righteous?"
Romans 5:19
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Only where God and God alone transfers those of His choosing into Christ, are they saved, made righteous, indwelt forever.

God chooses who gets saved, not ourselves, and it is His will that Hi sown are eternally saved and secured!

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Non-germane, no one said God does not do the electing according to His will.

Non-germane, no one said God does not do the electing according to His will.

[quote[ Ephesians 1:4-5 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Non-germane, No one said God did not choose us corporately before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him, or that God did not predestine those chosen to be adopted at Christ's second coming.

Names were not written and others presumably written since the foundation of the world.

Non-germane, no one said God has not chosen individuals for salvation from the salvation of the world.

Non-germane, no one said God did not elect Esau to serve Jacob based on the condition Esau was older.

Non-germane, no one said salvation does not depend on God alone.

Non-germane, no one said God does not do the electing.

Non-germane, no one said God does not show Himself with His creation and with His actions and with His words.

Non-germane no one said God did not choose individuals during their lifetime for salvation.

Non-germane, no one said God's redemption plan, formulated before the ages began, did not bestow grace upon those in Christ Jesus.

Non-germane, no one said those who took the direction given by Paul in His gospel presentation, did not believe into eternal life.

Non-germane, no one said that those who are disobedient to the Word are not destined to doom.

Non-germane, no one said that Jesus would lose anyone given to Him for salvation.

Non-germane, no one said God's redemption plan did not include predestining those chosen to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Bottom line, a ration of scripture was cited that provided no answer to the question, how does a worthless sinner believe into Him?[/QUOTE]

They don't Salvation is of the Lord 100% These verses only prove that.

 

[Van]

LOL, yet another denial that (1) God and God alone credits the faith of believers as righteousness.
Yes another denial that (2) worthless sinners can receive and respond to the gospel.
Yet another denial that (3) God transfers those whose faith He credits as righteousness into Christ.