God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved

[Marooncat79]

You intepret a passages to mean something that they do not mean

Gods will in salvation is always perfectly fulfilled according to scripture

According to what you believe, Gods absolute and perfect will is not accomplished since some do in fact die and go to hell

 

[SavedByGrace]

You intepret a passages to mean something that they do not mean

Gods will in salvation is always perfectly fulfilled according to scripture

According to what you believe, Gods absolute and perfect will is not accomplished since some do in fact die and go to hell

you don't seem to understand what "will/desire" means when relating to God?

 

[Marooncat79]

I do, no prob at all here

 

[SavedByGrace]

I do, no prob at all here

let me give an example from the OT to show what I mean. In Ezeliek 18 we read the Lord , saying:

"Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live? " (23)

The word "pleasure" is in the Hebrew, "châphêts", which here has the meaning, "to will, desire". Clearly in the passage, the Lord "desires" that the wicked sinner would "shûwb", that is, "be converted", from his wicked way, and live. This does not mean that there is any "complusion" on the Lord's part. It is clear from passages like 2 Thessalonians, that people will be going to hell "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved... that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2:10, 12). Free will to reject the Gospel is clearly taught here, and not that God does not want these to perish. This is also taught in Acts 13:46, "And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing you reject it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles". Note that it was the Gentiles here who "rejected" the Gospel, and they "considered themselves unworthy of eternal life", and NOT God as some will have use believe!

 

[Marooncat79]

john says “not by the will of man”

John 1:10-15 or so

 

[SavedByGrace]

john says “not by the will of man”

John 1:10-15 or so

Indeed, I have always said that no sinner can get up one day, and say, "I want to believe in, and follow Jesus as my Saviour today"! This is humanly impossible. God MUST take the first step in "convicting" the sinner, as Jesus Himself says at the start of John chapter 16, where He says the Coming of the Holy Spirit, will "convict the world of sin...because they do not believe in Me" (8-9). It is because "God first loved us" (1 John 4:19), that we would even bother!

 

[AustinC]

again, typical "reformed" response, to aviod what the OP actually says. It is about the Gospel Message being preached. That is it!

You are deflecting from the truth Dave has shared in an attempt to isolate God and His word to your parameters. Dave has acknowledged your one verse and fully expanded on it in light of all scripture. You should try it.

 

[AustinC]

indeed, to ALL sinners, and just the "elect" that some have corrupted the Gospel to mean!

You sound like a universalist.

 

[AustinC]

When Paul says in 1 Timothy 1:15, "Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief". Does he here mean that Jesus Christ came into the world to save "the elect"? If this is the case, then are we to conclude that those who are the "non-elect", are not "sinners"? And, in Romans 5:6, Paul says that Jesus died for the "ungodly", if this is exclusive for the "elect", then all the "non-elect" must be "godly"! In 1 Peter 3:18, we read, "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous". Are we here to believe that the "unrighteous", for whom Christ suffered for their sins, are to be restricted to the "elect", only, again, this would mean that those who are the "non-elect", must be "righteous"! The "theories" of the Reformed/Calvinstic theology are clear when compared to what the Bible actually Teaches.

Wow, that's a twisted thought regarding 1 Timothy 1:15.

Does that verse say that Christ Jesus came into the world to save "all" sinners? Or, is Paul acknowledging that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", of which Paul says he is the worst of sinners?

Savedbyworks, you can be a universalist if you desire. I don't see that view taught by God, however.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You sound like a universalist.

for salvation, NO, for the offer of the Gospel and Death of Jesus Christ, YES

 

[SavedByGrace]

Wow, that's a twisted thought regarding 1 Timothy 1:15.

Does that verse say that Christ Jesus came into the world to save "all" sinners? Or, is Paul acknowledging that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", of which Paul says he is the worst of sinners?

Savedbyworks, you can be a universalist if you desire. I don't see that view taught by God, however.

your arguments are not from the Bible, but your theology! 1 Timothy 2 which is the OP is very clear, that ALL means exactly that, everyone without exception, and yet people like you will keep on arguing against the Bible, because it does not agree with your theology!

 

[AustinC]

for salvation, NO, for the offer of the Gospel and Death of Jesus Christ, YES

Then you are no different than a Reformed person.
The gospel of reconciliation is preached universally to all sinners. All those chosen by God will respond in belief. All those left in their sin will respond as though it were foolishness.

Where we differ is that I believe God saves by His power alone, while you believe that you assist God in your salvation by choosing God to be the higher power that saves you. You see yourself as a key cog in your own salvation.

 

[Dave G]

you are not dealing with the OP

Respectfully, I am dealing directly with the OP.

From my perspective, you are defining the Gospel by man's will, and I am defining the Gospel by God's will.
Instead of basing the whosoever believeth on God's gracious work of the Holy Spirit upon rebellious sinners because of His mercy and grace, you appear to be basing His work of election on a potential, with God then electing based on our choice.

To me, your use of the passage in question makes God's choice of the sinner to salvation dependent upon His desire to save all men...
Which Romans 9 proves otherwise.

Ignoring Romans 8, Romans 9, Romans 10, Romans 11, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2, 2 Thessalonians 2, 1 Peter 1, and many other truths does not mean they have any less weight.
Therefore, I encourage you to carefully evaluate 1 Timothy 2:3-6 in the light of passages such as John 6:37-47, John 6:64-65, John 8:43-47, John 10:26-29, John 17:2-3, Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9, 1 Corinthians 1:18-31, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 and Psalms 65:4 to name a few.

Therefore, I recommend that the text should be looked at with election in mind, and not election being looked at with just that set of verses in mind.

 

[Dave G]

indeed, to ALL sinners, and just the "elect" that some have corrupted the Gospel to mean!

Indeed, the Gospel is for the "whosover believeth".
That very same people who are the elect.

Elect = Saved.
"Non-elect" = Damned.

God saves, and God keeps.
It's not an invitation, it is a completed work of God from the foundation of the world that is then acted out by Him in real time, by the power of His Spirit and His usage of preachers to inform the recipients of His grace about their having been saved.

The glory for anyone's gift of eternal life goes to Him and Him alone.
We have nothing to stand on except that mercy and grace.
Even our belief of the Gospel would not be possible without Him making the first move, the second move and every move that follows...
For we as sinners are totally helpless to remedy our own situation...

We love sin and will not repent, but for His grace in our lives.


That's not "Calvinism"...
That is the Bible when looked at and understood in its totality.

 

[Dave G]

again, typical "reformed" response, to aviod what the OP actually says. It is about the Gospel Message being preached. That is it!

I wouldn't know what the "Reformed Position" really is ( unless you're referring to "TULIP" ), as I have not taken my cues from anyone that is "Reformed".
I stumbled on election years ago in my reading, and everything went from there.

In truth, I was raised in Independent Baptist churches after I believed the Gospel in 1978, and they all taught the opposite of what I have come to believe...
That election is based on God foreseeing our choice of Christ, and not our choice of Christ based on His electing grace.

So, if reading the Bible for myself and coming to what I understand of it is what you call "Reformed", then I suppose that I will have to live with your labeling of me as a "Calvinist" even though I'd never heard of such "theology" until 2003.


As for preaching the Gospel as it should be preached, I'd be very careful to preach it as it was given by Peter and Paul did in the book of Acts to do, and not as many of today's preachers do.


May God bless you, once again, in your studies.

 

[SavedByGrace]

All those chosen by God will respond in belief. All those left in their sin will respond as though it were foolishness.

this is NOT in the Bible!

 

[SavedByGrace]

That's not "Calvinism"...
That is the Bible when looked at and understood in its totality.

it is!

 

[AustinC]

your arguments are not from the Bible, but your theology! 1 Timothy 2 which is the OP is very clear, that ALL means exactly that, everyone without exception, and yet people like you will keep on arguing against the Bible, because it does not agree with your theology!

It absolutely is from the Bible. Read Dave's response to you.

 

[AustinC]

this is NOT in the Bible!

It sure is. Read John 6, John 10 and John 17. Jesus is quite clear.

 

[SavedByGrace]

It sure is. Read John 6, John 10 and John 17. Jesus is quite clear.

with the Calvinistic slant?