That implies, along with the two other verses, that names start in God's book, and get blotted out when we are condemned eternally.
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God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved
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That implies, along with the two other verses, that names start in God's book, and get blotted out when we are condemned eternally.
I now see it is your view of sovereignty that is the problem. You believe God gets all He wants. I argue moral ability which means God does not get all He wants. The bible shows a God that doesn't get what He wants. How else do Amos, Hosea, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, and others make sense.
Yes, I believe 100% that God is Supreme over all His Creation. So does God.
You place yourself as equal with God in a joint cooperative venture. You and God are both little sovereign's.
I believe God in humility allows those made in His image to make choices that contradict His pleasing, perfect will. The bible proves it and it is your understanding that is confused in light of the bible. I will leave things here though. I know we will not influence each other at all at this point. I pray God blesses you.
You are struggling with capacity to make specific choices.
I have the capacity to choose between a bologna sandwich and a peanut butter sandwich. God is pleased to have me choose.
I do not have the capacity to choose if God will redeem me or not. God must make that choice to either pardon me or justly condemn me. I don't get that choice. It is not in my power to make that choice.
We disagree mainly because you presently struggle with this truth. Keep reading your Bible, Steve.
37818
Well-Known Member
Because Christ is, ". . . the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. . . ." 1 John 2:2.
37818
Well-Known Member
God's perfect will is according to His promise, Titus 1:2. Only those whom He receives as children are the ones He saves. Matthew 18:3, Mark 10:14-15, John 3:3-8.
many struggle on this , due to the "fairness factor"
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Respectfully, I don't see it as "very simple".
To me, the context of the "all men" in 1 Timothy 2:1 is the "all that are in authority" in verse 2.
Similarly, the context of the "all men" in verse 4 is the "all men" in verses 1-2, as well as the "all men that are among you" from passages like Romans 12:3.
The very same "world" that God so loved in John 3:16 ( because God hates the worker of iniquity, Psalms 5:5, Psalms 11:5 ) is the same "world" found in Romans 11:15, Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9, and 1 Corinthians 1:24, and is the same world that he sent His Son to die for...
His people ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ) out of every tongue, tribe and nation.
From my perspective, you're not taking into account election, predestination, calling and so forth.
Taking those into account ( especially Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9, Romans 11:7-8, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and many more ), brings out a massive contradiction between what God's word says about desiring all men to be saved ( 1 verse ) and God being selective about who He saves ( many verses ).
The way I see it, any other explanation gives us a contradiction and the passages will not harmonize.
However, you have the right to understand it the way you wish.
Personally, I believe that the Lord resolved this for me recently, and I admit that it is not easy to understand for anyone.
But, given that you disagree...
And since you seem to see it so "simply", why is it that God desires each and every man, woman and child to be saved, but most will end up in Hell?
Free will?
I'll need to see the Scriptures for that.
In the mean time, we can go over the Scriptures together, that plainly declare why some believe on Christ and why others do not...
and it doesn't have anything to do with our choice to accept or reject Him.
It focuses on election and God choosing, @SavedByGrace .
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Dave G
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Unless one understands that God not being a "respecter of person" means that He does not respect anyone's efforts to please Him, gain His favor, or work for their salvation...
nor does He respect any man's health, wealth, genetics, or heritage when it comes to who He makes the recipients of the new birth ( John 1:13 ).
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I must chime in. The issue is there are more than one verse showing God desires all saved. If you haven't noticed, I now have a Reformed stance on just about everything but God wanting all saved. As I argued in the last few months. You can harmonize the Word as a Synergist, it just takes real effort at understanding the Word and the humility to tell believers in TULIP they are right on a number of things.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I may have overstepped my estimate...
If so, then quote the ones you see fitting the view, Steven.
Please keep in mind the subject:
"God desiring all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I agree, Steven.
Those that are called "Calvinists", at least most of them, would probably agree as well.
Ezekiel 18:23 NASB
Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “[k]rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
Ezekiel 18:32 NASB
"For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."
Ezekiel 33:11 NASB
"Say to them, 'As I live!' declares the Lord GOD, 'I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?'
Notice in these Ezekiel passages the use of Yahweh Adonai, or LORD GOD. This means Master Yahweh, some translations, Sovereign Yahweh. God Gives no words haphazardly, so God is stressing His sovereignty in these passages. Passages that show Him reaching out to Israel for their salvation yet going against His sovereign will.
Lamentations 3:33 NASB
For He does not afflict willingly
Or grieve the sons of men.
Lamentations is key. It is not by accident this verse is at the middle of whole book. Jeremiah tours a concentration camp as far as we would be concerned and writes amidst the horror. No God is not cruel as some surmise, He does not with a whole heart inflict any pain. This is contradictory to the concept of a child of wrath that is destined to hell from birth.
Matthew 23:37 NASB
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
There are a number of passages like this in the bible, particularly the books of the prophets. It shows God is pained when His people reject Him and a good future, for His creations.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the [c]knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3:9 NASB
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
I include this knowing there is an honest debate about it. To my mind, the patience is to the enemies of God and His people so that some may be saved.
I will search for other verses if you wish. There are more in the Old Testament. I think there are a few more in the New Testament. The passage around John 3:16 for example.
Good, I have a lot in common with your position Now Dave. I like that, but I guess I am a bit surprised by a rejection of the teaching God wants all saved. If I dropped that I am as you then. If you accept it, you are as me.
God perfect will always will get done though!
Steve, I will only address the passages in Ezekiel. Context is very important here. God is speaking to Ezekiel while he is next to a irrigation canal in Babylon that came off the Euphrates River. God has been addressing the exiles and their blessing or curse while in exile. He is speaking to people who will physically live or die in Babylon due to their behavior. God desires them to live and not die. He wants them to submit under the yoke of the government that has exiled them. He wants them to repent of their rebellion and live. There is no pleasure for God in watching his elect, chosen people, die.
These verses are not about pagan rebels repenting unto salvation. If you try to apply these verses to salvation then you have really missed the meaning of the passage.
Point taken.
I was reading in that Jesus Christ and His church have brought the Call to repentance to all nations, to all creatures. I agree this passage is aimed at the chosen people, but our context as of Christ is bringing life to all the nations.
Another passage from the Old Testament. This time a call for the nations to repent, because one day every knee will bow and tongue confess.
Isaiah 45:21-25
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25 “In the Lord all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.”
I just have no comprehension how a believer in TULIP can be reading the biblical books that deal with the adultery of Israel and Judah and their punishments for what they did.
Isaiah 45:21-25
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25 “In the Lord all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.”
I just have no comprehension how a believer in TULIP can be reading the biblical books that deal with the adultery of Israel and Judah and their punishments for what they did.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Steven,
I'm not surprised.
As it is, two decades ago I would have disagreed with myself.
Question:
Is the "usward" ( in the KJV ) and the "you" in the NASB speaking about all men, or the beloved from the previous verse?
Also, are the "any" and the "all" with respect to all men everywhere, or again, is it in context with the "beloved" in verse 8?
If all men, then I agree with the usage of it.
But if it's with respect to the beloved ( God's elect )...
Now I see a little bit different picture.
What do you think?
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