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God the author and finisher of all salvation?
- Thread starter webdog
- Start date
James_Newman
New Member
webdog said:...and what did moses and the prophets teach? Who and what does the OT point to?
Are you insinuating Abraham is God? We are brothers and sisters...not children. I would not refer to you as my "father" in Christ or my "son".
Not hardly, but as a child of Abraham, the rich man is heir to the promise, is he not?
Romans 9:7-8 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
James_Newman
New Member
Blammo said:The rich man was a decendent of Abraham according to the flesh. (Son)
If there is nothing in the text about "believing something", what does the word persuade mean to you?
OK, so there is something that the rich man apparently missed out on. What did the rich man fail to believe? Is it not that there is a judgment to come and that we will be rewarded according to our works?
James_Newman said:OK, so there is something that the rich man apparently missed out on. What did the rich man fail to believe? Is it not that there is a judgment to come and that we will be rewarded according to our works?
He failed to believe "Moses and the prophets" (the word of God). He failed to believe God. Seems to me he ended up where he is because he had no faith in God. If he had faith in the God and His holy word, do you not believe he would have conducted his life in a much different way? (works)
James_Newman
New Member
Blammo said:He failed to believe "Moses and the prophets" (the word of God). He failed to believe God. Seems to me he ended up where he is because he had no faith in God. If he had faith in the God and His holy word, do you not believe he would have conducted his life in a much different way? (works)
Faith is often spoken of in religious circles as if it were some type of magic substance. All faith must have some object in view, some evidence. It is not enough to say 'I have faith in God and His holy word.' What does that mean? His holy word has a lot in it, and often we tend to pick and choose what we will believe. We say 'God would never do that to me, I'm a child of God.' The israelites were no different.
Jeremiah 7
4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
A man may believe in God, a man may believe in Jesus, a man may believe he is a sinner bought by the blood, and yet fail to believe that a warning in the bible is something he needs to beware. Or he may fail to believe that he can overcome sin (because everybody sins and God doesn't expect us to be perfect. Matt 5:48) God tells us over and over that he is not a respecter of persons, if we do wrong, we will receive for the wrong that we do.
James_Newman said:Faith is often spoken of in religious circles as if it were some type of magic substance. All faith must have some object in view, some evidence. It is not enough to say 'I have faith in God and His holy word.' What does that mean? His holy word has a lot in it, and often we tend to pick and choose what we will believe. We say 'God would never do that to me, I'm a child of God.' The israelites were no different.
Jeremiah 7
4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
A man may believe in God, a man may believe in Jesus, a man may believe he is a sinner bought by the blood, and yet fail to believe that a warning in the bible is something he needs to beware. Or he may fail to believe that he can overcome sin (because everybody sins and God doesn't expect us to be perfect. Matt 5:48) God tells us over and over that he is not a respecter of persons, if we do wrong, we will receive for the wrong that we do.
I am not talking simply "believing there is one God". (James 2:19)
I am talking about believing God. (James 2:21)
I have heard people say the "believe in Jesus" only to find, through further discussion, they don't know the first thing about Jesus Christ. They don't know who He is, what He did, or where He is.
Okay I asked a simple question or so I thought.
Believed in what webdog? Talk about avoiding a question. That's what you accused me of right? He wasn't a believer in what webdog? So far we got you agreeing with Blammo about Moses and the Prophets. And so he failed to believe them, but what did Moses and the prophets preach and teach?
What was he not a believer in. Specifics are critical at this juncture!
Believed in what webdog? Talk about avoiding a question. That's what you accused me of right? He wasn't a believer in what webdog? So far we got you agreeing with Blammo about Moses and the Prophets. And so he failed to believe them, but what did Moses and the prophets preach and teach?
What was he not a believer in. Specifics are critical at this juncture!
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James_Newman
New Member
Blammo said:I am not talking simply "believing there is one God". (James 2:19)
I am talking about believing God. (James 2:21)
I have heard people say the "believe in Jesus" only to find, through further discussion, they don't know the first thing about Jesus Christ. They don't know who He is, what He did, or where He is.
John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
What do you think a person has to believe in order to be saved?
I am talking about believing God.
Blammo what about believing God. What was he failing to believe God about?
James_Newman said:John 11:25-27
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.
What do you think a person has to believe in order to be saved?
Verse 27 says "I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."
It does not say "I believe that thou art a good man, a good teacher, which should be an example to us all."
J. Jump said:Blammo what about believing God. What was he failing to believe God about?
The text does not say what specificly he did not believe. It just suggests that he did not believe the word of God. (Moses and the prophets)
It just suggests that he did not believe the word of God. (Moses and the prophets)
But there is your answer right there. What did Moses and the prophets teach? Why I'm getting at is did he fail to believe God in regard to spiritual salvation or did he fail to believe God in relation to something else? And I think most of Christendom says that he failed to believe God in relation to spiritual salavtion, but that is just not contextually possible for a number of different reasons.
That's why I said the details are critical. This is not a spiritual salvation passage, because as a Jew his spiritual salvation was not in question.
Most of Christendom considers the Jews of this time to be a spiritually dead (unsaved) people, but they were not. They were spiritually alive, but spiritually blind and that is a HUGE difference in terms of doctrine.
Once one sees that these people were not "unsaved" as Christendom thinks of it today then things can really start to make a lot of sense.
James_Newman
New Member
Blammo said:Verse 27 says "I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."
It does not say "I believe that thou art a good man, a good teacher, which should be an example to us all."
Exactly right. To my understanding, the proper faith in Christ would be to understand that He was the Son of God, and that He took my place on the cross. His death was the payment for my sin. Basically what we know as the substitutionary attonement.
Now how is it that a person can believe this, and yet not believe other things in the bible? For instance, I may believe in the literal first coming, where His literal suffering paid for my sins, and yet I may spiritualize the second coming and say 'well I don't really believe that Jesus is going to return.' Does this mean I don't really have faith? Can I be amillennial or a preterist and still be saved? If I can, then a pre-millennialist (like me) must recognize that a man may have faith in one area, and lack faith in another. Even so, we must acknowledge that a man may believe that Jesus died to pay for his sins, all the while not understanding or denying that Jesus also died to give him power over sin.
Hope of Glory
New Member
James_Newman said:Can you show me that in the text? I see this:
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Does this not remind one of the Lord's words in Luke 9?
Luke 9:24-25
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
Also, see the word "Son"?
J. Jump said:What did Moses and the prophets teach?
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:36-38 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.
Am I getting warm? (not lukewarm) :smilewinkgrin:
James_Newman said:Exactly right. To my understanding, the proper faith in Christ would be to understand that He was the Son of God, and that He took my place on the cross. His death was the payment for my sin. Basically what we know as the substitutionary attonement.
Now how is it that a person can believe this, and yet not believe other things in the bible? For instance, I may believe in the literal first coming, where His literal suffering paid for my sins, and yet I may spiritualize the second coming and say 'well I don't really believe that Jesus is going to return.' Does this mean I don't really have faith? Can I be amillennial or a preterist and still be saved? If I can, then a pre-millennialist (like me) must recognize that a man may have faith in one area, and lack faith in another. Even so, we must acknowledge that a man may believe that Jesus died to pay for his sins, all the while not understanding or denying that Jesus also died to give him power over sin.
Yep. I see what you're saying.
Am I getting warm? (not lukewarm) :smilewinkgrin:
Well the main point of Moses and the prophets was teaching of the coming Messiah . . . the Annointed King. Christ was born King and offered a part to play in His coming Kingdom to the Jews.
That is the message that the Jews rejected, not spiritual salvation.
Hope that helps.
webdog said:I don't think it's complicated, just a false assumption. If post death chastisement was a given in Scripture, it would be clear.
It is clear my friend. Clear as the ringing of the church bells on a sunday morning.
Exhibit A;
1Co 9:24
¶ Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26
I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Exhibit B;
Ro 14:7
For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Ro 14:8
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Ro 14:9
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Ro 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Ro 14:11
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Ro 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Exhibit C;
2Co 5:9
Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
2Co 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
What do you suppose it is that one would receive for the "bad" things done while in his body? Huh? You folks say all that happens is LOSS of rewards, but this CLEARLY says you RECEIVE something, not lose something.
You only say that post-death chastisement is unclear because your fleshly mind hates the thought of accountability towards our Thrice Holy God.
(the following is my edit)
PS: For you ultra dispys out there, you will notice that every passage quoted was IN CONTEXT and PAULINE.
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