God the author and finisher of all salvation?

[Hope of Glory]

What do you suppose it is that one would receive for the "bad" things done while in his body? Huh? You folks say all that happens is LOSS of rewards, but this CLEARLY says you RECEIVE something, not lose something.

But, the government calls a smaller increase than what is wanted a "cut". Perhaps God is sneaky in the same way...

 

[av1611jim]

But, the government calls a smaller increase than what is wanted a "cut". Perhaps God is sneaky in the same way...

I surely hope you are kidding.

Equating God's justice and equity with the deceitfulness of government?

Surely you jest. And I did mean to call you Shirley.:laugh:

 

[Hope of Glory]

Of course I'm kidding and don't call me...

Hey! No fair!

 

[webdog]

What do you suppose it is that one would receive for the "bad" things done while in his body? Huh? You folks say all that happens is LOSS of rewards, but this CLEARLY says you RECEIVE something, not lose something.

I'm not understanding your logic. If I were to lose money on an investment...I'm not really losing it?

You only say that post-death chastisement is unclear because your fleshly mind hates the thought of accountability towards our Thrice Holy God.

Now you are telling me what I hate? Please, keep the mind reading for someone else. You have a real habit of falsely accusing me here on the BB, and I ask you to refrain from doing so.
I believe we are accountable. I don't believe salvation...either eternal or "kingom" is left up to me. You are a monergist when it comes to the one single moment of eternal salvation that is secure...and a synergist when it comes to trying to live a blameless life in order to avoid hell for a thousand years...all with not knowing what needs to be done because Scripture doesn't say?

 

[J. Jump]

all with not knowing what needs to be done because Scripture doesn't say?

Webdog I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. I have an idea, but would you elaborate please?

 

[webdog]

Webdog I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. I have an idea, but would you elaborate please?

"Striving for the prize".

If works are required for entrance into the kingdom...how many? What kind? What's the standard? Who judges? If it's God...where? I can think all along it's keeping the Ten Commandments while someone else thinks it's only evangelism...and when we both get to Heaven, we are both wrong. What's the standard? Surely if this is truth, there has to be clear requirements. Eternal salvation has clear requirements.

Would you run in a race where the course broke off into three different direction, no distance given or time requirement, but you are told to "just run, and we'll tell you who wins when you get there"?

 

[James_Newman]

"Striving for the prize".

If works are required for entrance into the kingdom...how many? What kind? What's the standard? Who judges? If it's God...where? I can think all along it's keeping the Ten Commandments while someone else thinks it's only evangelism...and when we both get to Heaven, we are both wrong. What's the standard? Surely if this is truth, there has to be clear requirements. Eternal salvation has clear requirements.

Would you run in a race where the course broke off into three different direction, no distance given or time requirement, but you are told to "just run, and we'll tell you who wins when you get there"?

Oh, the requirements are not as fuzzy as we would imagine.

Matthew 19:17
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

2 Peter 1:3-11
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[webdog]

So from that Scripture every human being will burn in hell for a thousand years unless that can be broken down more specifically. There is specific requirement for salvation...not broad. If there weren't, all roads could lead to Heaven.

 

[npetreley]

If works are required for entrance into the kingdom...how many? What kind?

Simple.

Matthew 5:3 “ Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

There you go. All you have to do is be poor in spirit. Easy peasy.

 

[webdog]

Dead people are pretty poor

The Kingdom is for the unregenerate?

 

[Blammo]

2 Peter 1:3-11
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

James,

I thought of the same scripture when webdog asked the question. But, when I looked it up and read it, I noticed in the last verse, "everlasting kingdom".

Is the "everlasting kingdom" the same as the "millennial kingdom"?

 

[James_Newman]

As far as I can tell, there is really only one kingdom that the scripture looks toward all throughout. The bible gives us very little information about the ages beyond that time. Everlasting is a pretty generic word, that simply means lasting a long time. That time will often have to be determined by context.

 

[webdog]

Everlasting is a pretty generic word, that simply means lasting a long time.

 

[James_Newman]

So from that Scripture every human being will burn in hell for a thousand years unless that can be broken down more specifically. There is specific requirement for salvation...not broad. If there weren't, all roads could lead to Heaven.

He's given you a map.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

He's given you a guide.

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

He's given you examples to follow.

Hebrews 12:1
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

1 Corinthians 11:1
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

It just starts with faith.

 

[J. Jump]

"Striving for the prize".

If works are required for entrance into the kingdom...how many? What kind? What's the standard? Who judges? If it's God...where? I can think all along it's keeping the Ten Commandments while someone else thinks it's only evangelism...and when we both get to Heaven, we are both wrong. What's the standard? Surely if this is truth, there has to be clear requirements. Eternal salvation has clear requirements.

Would you run in a race where the course broke off into three different direction, no distance given or time requirement, but you are told to "just run, and we'll tell you who wins when you get there"?

There is no doubt that works are required for entrance into the kingdom, becuase the Bible explicity states such.

How many? A liftetime of works, however long your life might be on this planet.

What kind? Well there are generic commands that we are all supposed to follow and then there are specific things that we are supposed to do as individuals.

What's the standard? The standard is the standard that Scripture gives us. Follow the rules and if you break a rule then confess and go back to following the rules until you break one again and then confess and go back to following the rules, etc., etc. We are not to be perfect, because that is unattainable. We are just supposed to be blameless. That is attainable through God's grace.

If it's God...where? The judgment seat of Christ. That's the whole purpose of it. To separate the faithful from the non-faithful. The obedient from the disobedient. The overcomers from the non-overcomers.

Surely if this is truth, there has to be clear requirements.

There are. That's why you have the Bible. That's God's instruction manual.

Eternal salvation has clear requirements.

While I agree this is a true statement, not even all of Christendom can agree on what those requirements are well it's really not but terribly

 

[J. Jump]

Is the "everlasting kingdom" the same as the "millennial kingdom"?

Blammo the Greek adjective aionios is more often than not incorrectly translated as eternal or everlasting. The word, unless context dictates (which is only a couple of times) is better translated and understood as age-lasting, becuase it is an adjective of the Greek word aion which means age, or a set period of time with a beginning and an ending.

We know that the coming kingdom of Christ has a beginning and it has an end. It will last 1,000 years and then the kingdom will be delievered up to the Father and the throne will become the throne of God and the Lamb if memory from Revelation serves me right.

Hope that helps.

 

[webdog]

He's given you a map.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Psalms 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

I agree Kingdom salvation is through faith.

He's given you a guide.

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Ephesians 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Says nothing of works related Kingdom requirements...

He's given you examples to follow.

Hebrews 12:1
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

1 Corinthians 11:1
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

It just starts with faith.

Where are the specifice requirements here? I agree...it starts with faith. Where we disagree is I believe it ends with faith, too.

 

[webdog]

There is no doubt that works are required for entrance into the kingdom, becuase the Bible explicity states such.

How many? A liftetime of works, however long your life might be on this planet.

Scripture showing a "lifetime of works" is the requirement?

What kind? Well there are generic commands that we are all supposed to follow and then there are specific things that we are supposed to do as individuals.

So eternal salvation is a point blank specific as can be...but in order to avoid becoming toast in hell God only gives us "generic commands"? Whatever...

What's the standard? The standard is the standard that Scripture gives us. Follow the rules and if you break a rule then confess and go back to following the rules until you break one again and then confess and go back to following the rules, etc., etc. We are not to be perfect, because that is unattainable. We are just supposed to be blameless. That is attainable through God's grace.

This is kinda like plucking petals of a flower "he loves me...he loves me not". If we happen to breathe our last breath in between sin and confession, we spend some time in hell.

There are. That's why you have the Bible. That's God's instruction manual.

You state there are clear commands...and then contradict yourself by stating God gives us "generic commands". Which is it?

 

[webdog]

Blammo the Greek adjective aionios is more often than not incorrectly translated as eternal or everlasting. The word, unless context dictates (which is only a couple of times) is better translated and understood as age-lasting, becuase it is an adjective of the Greek word aion which means age, or a set period of time with a beginning and an ending.

We know that the coming kingdom of Christ has a beginning and it has an end. It will last 1,000 years and then the kingdom will be delievered up to the Father and the throne will become the throne of God and the Lamb if memory from Revelation serves me right.

Hope that helps.

The context of the whole of Scripture dictates that eternal and everlasting are just that...and not "age lasting".

 

[J. Jump]

The context of the whole of Scripture dictates that eternal and everlasting are just that...and not "age lasting".

Quite the contrary. The septenary arrangment of Scripture dictates that it is in fact age-lasting. Also we know that the kingdom is going to be 1,000 years, which right there alone tells us it is not eternal or everlasting, but it is for an age. It is for 1,000 years. Awfully hard to argue that the Messianic Kingdom is not 1,000 years in length.