God uses means

[DHK]

But he said "..........save some."
And I believe you are replying and quoting Paul in response to the disagreement about God using means to save and/or regenerate people.
So, is Paul saying he became everything to everyone in order to save those he comes in contact with, from the lake of fire Do you believe that's what he meant ?

No, as I said, it means adopting to their culture as Hudson did to China.
Some take it out of context to and use is as an excuse: "I can go into a bar and drink with the alcoholics to win the alcoholics."
It doesn't mean that. One might as well say: "I need to become a drug addict to win the drug addicts. This is nonsense of course.

Paul adopted to the culture he was in, in order to win them to Christ, and yet at the same time kept himself pure from sin.

The "means" for example would be to allow himself to eat meat offered to idols as long as there was no offense to a weaker brother.
Or to refrain if it would cause another to stumble. He would adapt to the situation using whatever means possible to reach others.

 

[pinoybaptist]

No, as I said, it means adopting to their culture as Hudson did to China.
Some take it out of context to and use is as an excuse: "I can go into a bar and drink with the alcoholics to win the alcoholics."
It doesn't mean that. One might as well say: "I need to become a drug addict to win the drug addicts. This is nonsense of course.

Paul adopted to the culture he was in, in order to win them to Christ, and yet at the same time kept himself pure from sin.

The "means" for example would be to allow himself to eat meat offered to idols as long as there was no offense to a weaker brother.
Or to refrain if it would cause another to stumble. He would adapt to the situation using whatever means possible to reach others.

Okay. If you put it that way, then I agree.
Thanks for clarifying what you meant.:thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

pinoybaptist

Like I said, nothing proven.

Everyone is offering the clear teaching of scripture.It is and has been proven.

You guys will need to keep tearing Scripture out of context to make it say what you want to mean.

This constant excuse on your part is not cutting it. Nothing is out of context at all......Your lack of comprehension does not mean it is out of context.

persecution was a means used to scatter the believers, the result was they preached everywhere.

sign gifts got the peoples attention....then they believed...that is what happened... I do not see any mention of"timely" salvation as if it in anyway differed from the one salvation that comes from God.

Evil spirits coming out of men ? The lame walking again ?

sign gifts were means used by God to credential the Apostles and His Divine word....there is no question of this.

Come on, Icon. I expect more of you than that. Honest.

The scriptures present balance that is clear....It is not about me or what you expect of me. I will be obedient to God to bring gospel truth to all men. The results belong to God.....lk14;

And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

It doesn't prove your doctrines that God uses means to regenerate or eternally save His people.

You can look at it and ignore it if you want,,,,I will obey.

Those miracles and healings CONFIRMED the calling of the ones by whom God worked those miracles.

sign gifts confirmed the word which was the means used.

The Ethiopian ?
Are you now saying a spiritually dead totally depraved unregenerate sinner will show interest in the things of God ?

Yes they can....

27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.

28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Not enough to save them unless the Spirit gives a new heart.
Those in the parable of the sower.. also fell away...they had a temporary human trust rather than a Godly faith.

That the Holy Spirit, Himself the very God who wrote the names of His people in His book of life will waste time whisking Stephen from one spot to another for one not His own ?

God has always preached to believers and unbelievers.

:We all of us need and needed somebody to expound Scripture to us the time AFTER we were born again. Now, THAT is the very purpose for teachers and preachers

They are used before during and after salvation.

 

[pinoybaptist]

pinoybaptist




Everyone is offering the clear teaching of scripture.It is and has been proven.


This constant excuse on your part is not cutting it. Nothing is out of context at all......Your lack of comprehension does not mean it is out of context.

persecution was a means used to scatter the believers, the result was they preached everywhere.

sign gifts got the peoples attention....then they believed...that is what happened... I do not see any mention of"timely" salvation as if it in anyway differed from the one salvation that comes from God.





sign gifts were means used by God to credential the Apostles and His Divine word....there is no question of this.



The scriptures present balance that is clear....It is not about me or what you expect of me. I will be obedient to God to bring gospel truth to all men. The results belong to God.....lk14;

And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.




You can look at it and ignore it if you want,,,,I will obey.




sign gifts confirmed the word which was the means used.



Yes they can....

27 King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest.

28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

Not enough to save them unless the Spirit gives a new heart.
Those in the parable of the sower.. also fell away...they had a temporary human trust rather than a Godly faith.


God has always preached to believers and unbelievers.




They are used before during and after salvation.

You are an Arminian hiding behind a Calvinist facade.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are an Arminian hiding behind a Calvinist facade.

I understand what the gospel is. What you are teaching is fatalism and not the gospel. I have no trouble saying that I would stand with some of the non cals rather than you or your unchurched sidekick.
The non cals even grasp that God while sovereign still employs means which you clearly deny.
What you believe does not disturb me in that it is of no consequence as you do not employ missionary activity so you instead hide any light under a bushel... we cannot let sinners see or hear anything right??? Yes lets keep it a secret like the man with one talent who hid it.

I had not had much dealings with PB beliefs before, but now I will know to avoid them at all cost.
Because someone can speak about the "elect" is not a ticket into heaven.

EWF said someone "killed" your other thread. I believe him for once.
They did kill it- it was a mercy killing:thumbs:

To deny that God uses sheep to reach other sheep is a travesty.
To sit back and teach some kind of carnal security....you called it preservation , rather than perseverance is quite understandable now.

it allows false professors to presume God will do all the work...we have not been told to do anything, or be our brothers keeper.

it does not matter how many scriptures you are shown, you are unable to welcome them. You turn your back on the professing church as if you alone have truth when in reality you cannot describe biblical salvation or biblical sanctification or verses like this which you have no theology for;

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God;

You substitute a carnal security saying it is all past, which allows professed PB's to post potty mouth posts and think they are okay because it is all past...they are being preserved...their personal conduct does not matter...

So when Paul asks this question-

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

you can say...YES...it does not matter how you live...it is all past, your works have nothing to do with salvation.....no thanks....I will stick with the professing church...not some novelties. old school error is more like it:thumbs:

 

[pinoybaptist]

I understand what the gospel is. What you are teaching is fatalism and not the gospel. I have no trouble saying that I would stand with some of the non cals rather than you or your unchurched sidekick.
The non cals even grasp that God while sovereign still employs means which you clearly deny.
What you believe does not disturb me in that it is of no consequence as you do not employ missionary activity so you instead hide any light under a bushel... we cannot let sinners see or hear anything right??? Yes lets keep it a secret like the man with one talent who hid it.

I had not had much dealings with PB beliefs before, but now I will know to avoid them at all cost.
Because someone can speak about the "elect" is not a ticket into heaven.

EWF said someone "killed" your other thread. I believe him for once.
They did kill it- it was a mercy killing:thumbs:

To deny that God uses sheep to reach other sheep is a travesty.
To sit back and teach some kind of carnal security....you called it preservation , rather than perseverance is quite understandable now.

it allows false professors to presume God will do all the work...we have not been told to do anything, or be our brothers keeper.

it does not matter how many scriptures you are shown, you are unable to welcome them. You turn your back on the professing church as if you alone have truth when in reality you cannot describe biblical salvation or biblical sanctification or verses like this which you have no theology for;

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God;

You substitute a carnal security saying it is all past, which allows professed PB's to post potty mouth posts and think they are okay because it is all past...they are being preserved...their personal conduct does not matter...

So when Paul asks this question-

Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

you can say...YES...it does not matter how you live...it is all past, your works have nothing to do with salvation.....no thanks....I will stick with the professing church...not some novelties. old school error is more like it:thumbs:

Okay. You would rather we be enemies than brethren is fine with me. I'll deal with your prideful childishness later. By the way EWF is not my sidekick. He is capable of defending what he believes without being somebody' sidekick. You are totally pathetic.

 

[Iconoclast]

Okay. You would rather we be enemies than brethren is fine with me. I'll deal with your prideful childishness later. By the way EWF is not my sidekick. He is capable of defending what he believes without being somebody' sidekick. You are totally pathetic.

Your name calling fits your "timely error".I would rather you repent of being an accuser of the brethren.....Your denial of the use of means makes your teaching a direct violation of the cross you say you believe in.
I let your name calling go in several earlier posts because I wanted to give you a chance to explain what you believe.
I see you cannot offer any substance so you resort to calling us names.

You will deal with nothing as your anti gospel anti mission message has been exposed.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Icon, among other things, you said :
To deny that God uses sheep to reach other sheep is a travesty.

man, you must be approaching senility you can't even reme.Ber the gist of what was said.
I deny the Holy Spirit, Himself God, uses means to eternally save His people or to regenerate them.
I deny that God uses sheep to reach GOATS in order for them to become sheep.
I agreed the gospel is a means used by God through preachers and teachers, for his sheep, NOT GOATS.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Okay. You would rather we be enemies than brethren is fine with me. I'll deal with your prideful childishness later. By the way EWF is not my sidekick. He is capable of defending what he believes without being somebody' sidekick. You are totally pathetic.

Wow....you just noticed?! :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, as I said, it means adopting to their culture as Hudson did to China.
Some take it out of context to and use is as an excuse: "I can go into a bar and drink with the alcoholics to win the alcoholics."

Oh ...yea I see, everyone who goes in or out of a bar is an alcoholic?!? :smilewinkgrin:

It doesn't mean that. One might as well say: "I need to become a drug addict to win the drug addicts. This is nonsense of course.

Rediculous you even mentioned it!

 

[DHK]

And how else would you say the Ethiopian got saved.
Here are some things you need to consider:

First define "spiritually dead." What does that mean to you? Better yet, what is the Biblical definition.
Second, we know he wasn't saved. Luke's account says as much, and I don't believe the Holy Spirit is lying in the inspired Word. Thus this unregenerated spiritually dead person was indeed reading the scriptures. He was interested. His problem was in understanding. Therefore he asked Philip to come and help him understand the scriptures.
Both the scriptures and Philip were the MEANS of his salvation.

What does "spiritually dead" mean?

Pinoy, can you answer this post please.

 

[Rippon]

I deny that God uses sheep to reach GOATS in order for them to become sheep.

Maybe I missed something Icon said. However, no one here, to my knowledge, is saying that a goat can become a sheep.

I agreed the gospel is a means used by God through preachers and teachers, for his sheep, NOT GOATS.

Let me straighten this out. The Lord uses his people, whether preachers in the conventional sense, or ordinary Christians, to spread the Gospel. The Gospel is spread among the elect and non-elect --the sheep and goats respectively. Nobody has a detection system to discern the elect from the non-elect. The Lord has His own purpose for some of the non-elect to hear the Gospel.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Your name calling fits your "timely error".

My name calling.
my, my, my. :laugh:
you sure are a piece of work, dude.
I seem to recall it was you who first started a post questioning the integrity of PB's and PB doctrine because you happened to come across an article of two of our PB elders regarding John Calvin.
What's the matter, you like to push but hate it when somebody pushes back?
you're not only pathetic, you're also a bully.

I would rather you repent of being an accuser of the brethren.....

No, I would rather you repent of making Christ's finished work ineffective without the gospel being preached and believed on.

Your denial of the use of means makes your teaching a direct violation of the cross you say you believe in.

And your insistence that the Holy Spirit must use means to regenerate His own is an insult to His Person.

I let your name calling go in several earlier posts because I wanted to give you a chance to explain what you believe.

REALLY ??
And you insult our elders without them being present to defend themselves.
What do you call that ?

I see you cannot offer any substance so you resort to calling us names.

My, my. You're backed up into a corner because I showed how you deliberately lifted Scriptures out of context to support your theory that God uses means to regenerate His people, and I'm the one with no substance to offer ?

You will deal with nothing as your anti gospel anti mission message has been exposed.

I have dealt with everything you threw at me.
You're the one unable to prove your doctrine.
Pathetic and miserable.

 

[Rippon]

You are an Arminian hiding behind a Calvinist facade.

Nothing in Icon's #43 post is remotely Arminian. It is as Arminan as Whitefield or Spurgeon --which is to say --no trace. During Spurgeon's ministry hyper-Calvinists such as James Wells called C.H.S. an Arminian numerous times. Calvinism is balanced. But neither Arminianism or hyper-Calvinism are biblically balanced. Your hyper-Calvinism is just as biblically distorted as Arminianism is.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Maybe I missed something Icon said. However, no one here, to my knowledge, is saying that a goat can become a sheep.

Yeah ? then you probably did miss something.
Look again.

Let me straighten this out. The Lord uses his people, whether preachers in the conventional sense, or ordinary Christians, to spread the Gospel. The Gospel is spread among the elect and non-elect --the sheep and goats respectively. Nobody has a detection system to discern the elect from the non-elect. The Lord has His own purpose for some of the non-elect to hear the Gospel.

Okay, now let ME straighten this out.
My stand is that God did not use means to eternally save His elect.
And He still does not use means BECAUSE REDEMPTION IS DONE.
No more redeeming to do, no more atoning for to do.
All whose names are in the Book of Life, even the unborn, are already redeemed, BECAUSE THE BLOOD HAS BEEN SHED ALREADY, and will NOT be shed again.

The gospel, while preached to everybody, is good news ONLY to those whose ears have been opened, and whose hearts have been prepared beforehand by God.

It is a MEANS unto TIMELY SALVATION here in this time world for the regenerate elect.

Your buddy could not seem to get the facts of this discussion straight.
He says I deny that the Lord uses sheep to reach other sheep.
I never did that.
I deny that God uses sheep to reach goats.
And added "to make them sheep" to dig at those who think the gospel redeems and eternally saves.

 

[Rippon]

By the way EWF is not my sidekick. He is capable of defending what he believes without being somebody' sidekick.

I would describe his relationship with you to be exactly as a sidekick. EW&F is certainly not capable of defending what he believes. He relies on you to do the heavy lifting. EW&F specializes in drive-by posts characterized as brief rejoiners usually on the risque side -- many of which are hard to decipher.

 

[Rippon]

:We all of us need and needed somebody to expound Scripture to us the time AFTER we were born again. Now, THAT is the very purpose for teachers and preachers

Christians certainly do need teachers and preachers to grow in the knowledge of God and His Word. However a preacher/teacher has a role to play with the unregenerate. The unregenerate need to hear the Word expounded and made plain. Phillip was used to do exactly that with an unregenerate. For you to deny that is alarming. Is that your personal belief or do all Primitive Baptists hold to that distinctive?

 

[pinoybaptist]

Nothing in Icon's #43 post is remotely Arminian. It is as Arminan as Whitefield or Spurgeon --which is to say --no trace. During Spurgeon's ministry hyper-Calvinists such as James Wells called C.H.S. an Arminian numerous times. Calvinism is balanced. But neither Arminianism or hyper-Calvinism are biblically balanced. Your hyper-Calvinism is just as biblically distorted as Arminianism is.

really ?
nothing ?

this is me asking him a question to which he answered in the affirmative.

The Ethiopian ?
Are you now saying a spiritually dead totally depraved unregenerate sinner will show interest in the things of God ?

In my recollection recall that is not what Total Depravity says, nor the scriptures: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Romans 3:11

The Ethiopian is a regenerate son of God, uninstructed in the Scriptures.
The Holy Spirit did not send Philip there to get this guy "saved", eternally, such as Christ HAS ALREADY DONE for him.

Hey, ICON, here is an example of sheep instructing sheep, which I never denied.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Christians certainly do need teachers and preachers to grow in the knowledge of God and His Word. However a preacher/teacher has a role to play with the unregenerate. The unregenerate need to hear the Word expounded and made plain. Phillip was used to do exactly that with an unregenerate. For you to deny that is alarming. Is that your personal belief or do all Primitive Baptists hold to that distinctive?

So you're saying the preacher is the Holy Spirit's vehicle for the regeneration of the unregenerate ?
Is that what you are saying ?
Now who are these unregenerates, are they of the elect, or the unelect.
And you're agreeing with the other dude that the "dead in sins and trespasses" can show an interest in the things of God, independent of the working of the Holy Spirit in him "to do and to will of His good pleasure" ?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I would describe his relationship with you to be exactly as a sidekick. EW&F is certainly not capable of defending what he believes. He relies on you to do the heavy lifting. EW&F specializes in drive-by posts characterized as brief rejoiners usually on the risque side -- many of which are hard to decipher.

No. He is not my sidekick. He is my brother, and friend.
That is his style of posting, just as your friend's style is to post out of context scriptures to prove the unprovable.