God's existence

[AresMan]

I believe that is figurative and anthropomorphic along with all linear language describing anything "before" time.

Exactly.

To try to argue that there was actual time before the Creation in the sense of the linear progression we measure in physics would run afoul of the Kalam argument.

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female

I would say that to make Creation just an event in "eternal" linear time makes the "at the beginning" statements somewhat meaningless. They would all have to mean "at the beginning of the Creation event," and not really "at the beginning, period."

The prologue of John 1:1 is a powerful statement of the transcendence of the Logos over everything related to the physical universe: In the beginning "was being" the Logos.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Exactly.

To try to argue that there was actual time before the Creation in the sense of the linear progression we measure in physics would run afoul of the Kalam argument.

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female

I would say that to make Creation just an event in "eternal" linear time makes the "at the beginning" statements somewhat meaningless. They would all have to mean "at the beginning of the Creation event," and not really "at the beginning, period."

The prologue of John 1:1 is a powerful statement of the transcendence of the Logos over everything related to the physical universe: In the beginning "was being" the Logos.

Very True....Nice reference to the "Kalaam!" :thumbsup: Ultimately...Time, as an actual infinite would be logically absurd, as are all actual infinites. Better to adopt the more Orthodox P.O.V. about time's possesing a beginning. Otherwise.....We have not yet arrived at the point wherein God has decided to create yet!! This is only because we still have an infinite series of events or an infinite amount of time remaining before we reach the point that Genesis 1:1 is supposed to occur. Leibniz put it perfectly...Why did God "wait" until now?

 

[Yeshua1]

Very True....Nice reference to the "Kalaam!" :thumbsup: Ultimately...Time, as an actual infinite would be logically absurd, as are all actual infinites. Better to adopt the more Orthodox P.O.V. about time's possesing a beginning. Otherwise.....We have not yet arrived at the point wherein God has decided to create yet!! This is only because we still have an infinite series of events or an infinite amount of time remaining before we reach the point that Genesis 1:1 is supposed to occur. Leibniz put it perfectly...Why did God "wait" until now?

Do you see God existing by himself in Eternity past, before He decided to create all things, such as Universe, time, space, angels etc?

 

[Yeshua1]

Exactly.

To try to argue that there was actual time before the Creation in the sense of the linear progression we measure in physics would run afoul of the Kalam argument.

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female

I would say that to make Creation just an event in "eternal" linear time makes the "at the beginning" statements somewhat meaningless. They would all have to mean "at the beginning of the Creation event," and not really "at the beginning, period."

The prologue of John 1:1 is a powerful statement of the transcendence of the Logos over everything related to the physical universe: In the beginning "was being" the Logos.

wasn't his point that WHATEVER beginning is assumed, that the Logos was already existing, being eternal?

 

[Ceegen]

Time is an observance of changes, and even by secular standards, time didn't exist until the "big bang". Without changes to observe, there is no time.

So, time to God, is anything HE wants it to be since He is the one making the changes. That is why one day "is as" a thousand years, and a thousand years "is as" one day. It doesn't matter if a "day" to God is one second or 5,478,221 years, a day is whatever God says it is because He IS God.

 

[webdog]

Time is an observance of changes, and even by secular standards, time didn't exist until the "big bang". Without changes to observe, there is no time.

So, time to God, is anything HE wants it to be since He is the one making the changes. That is why one day "is as" a thousand years, and a thousand years "is as" one day. It doesn't matter if a "day" to God is one second or 5,478,221 years, a day is whatever God says it is because He IS God.

A day being as a thousand years is merely a figurative explanation that to an eternal God what we consider to be a very long time is anything but. A day remains a day regardless and cannot be 5.478 million years.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Do you see God existing by himself in Eternity past, before He decided to create all things, such as Universe, time, space, angels etc?

Not really....to say "Past" is to assume time (if we think of it as what would make sense of a sequence of events) ....But to say "Eternity" is not to assume time..."Eternity" is understood by most who would view the subject as I would, to be a state rather of "time less ness". Thus to say: "Before"...is to assume time itself. Rather we might say...there is no such thing as the status of a temporal "before" the creation.

Angels are a separate issue...without going into detail, my view would be that Angels are a facet of the initial creative act as well, which probably had their becoming somewhere between day 1 and day 3.....They were a witness to God's "laying the foundations of the Earth"....(day 3) and they "shouted for joy"....This is often thought to mean we should pre-date their creation prior to or on day 3...(one shouldn't be dogmatic though) but it is probable that they did not pre-date any intial creative decree.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

A day being as a thousand years is merely a figurative explanation that to an eternal God what we consider to be a very long time is anything but. A day remains a day regardless and cannot be 5.478 million years.

Seconded...

 

[MB]

First of all, my comment was purely interesting speculation, not an axiomatic statement. Second, it is indeed a fact that the rate of time passage slows with respect to velocity. As to whether t=0, or as some have theorized, particles at the speed of light require infinite mass and infinite energy, we may never know. I don't know what you mean by "light escaping itself", don't recall attempting to imply that, if so, I apologize.

You didn't imply, I did and there is nothing to forgive you for my friend:thumbsup:.
The "Light escaping it's self" statement came about when web dog made the statement that God stepped out side of time. and then someone else said God is light which is true. I was taught that there is nothing out side of time and that time has always existed. Just as God has always existed. Not that time is more powerful than God or even on the same level as God. Time is eternal It's a thing not a person . We cannot see time we can only know of it's passing. There will always be an eternity or there is no such thing. Time and eternity are like a Mobius ban there is no out side, and there is only one side. A mobius ban looks like a number 8 lying down on it's side. It's the symbol for infinity. What this symbol doesn't show clearly is that there is a 1/2 twist in it.

God can move through time if He so wishes but He really has no need to because what ever time you can think of there God is. Nothing escapes God because God is omnipresent. Meaning; "Everywhere at the same time" There is no out side of time because it doesn't exist. There is nothing not even space out side of time. Certainly there is absolutely no reason to ever assume that God moves in or out of time inorder to travel through it. God is already there He doesn‘t need to travel . He is omnipresent.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Not really....to say "Past" is to assume time (if we think of it as what would make sense of a sequence of events) ....But to say "Eternity" is not to assume time..."Eternity" is understood by most who would view the subject as I would, to be a state rather of "time less ness". Thus to say: "Before"...is to assume time itself. Rather we might say...there is no such thing as the status of a temporal "before" the creation.

Angels are a separate issue...without going into detail, my view would be that Angels are a facet of the initial creative act as well, which probably had their becoming somewhere between day 1 and day 3.....They were a witness to God's "laying the foundations of the Earth"....(day 3) and they "shouted for joy"....This is often thought to mean we should pre-date their creation prior to or on day 3...(one shouldn't be dogmatic though) but it is probable that they did not pre-date any intial creative decree.

Since God ALONE is self existent, ALL other things had a creation point, would he be by himself somewhere in the eternal past, at least as we as finite minds relate to it?

 

[webdog]

You didn't imply, I did and there is nothing to forgive you for my friend:thumbsup:.
The "Light escaping it's self" statement came about when web dog made the statement that God stepped out side of time. and then someone else said God is light which is true. I was taught that there is nothing out side of time and that time has always existed. Just as God has always existed. Not that time is more powerful than God or even on the same level as God. Time is eternal It's a thing not a person . We cannot see time we can only know of it's passing. There will always be an eternity or there is no such thing. Time and eternity are like a Mobius ban there is no out side, and there is only one side. A mobius ban looks like a number 8 lying down on it's side. It's the symbol for infinity. What this symbol doesn't show clearly is that there is a 1/2 twist in it.

God can move through time if He so wishes but He really has no need to because what ever time you can think of there God is. Nothing escapes God because God is omnipresent. Meaning; "Everywhere at the same time" There is no out side of time because it doesn't exist. There is nothing not even space out side of time. Certainly there is absolutely no reason to ever assume that God moves in or out of time inorder to travel through it. God is already there He doesn‘t need to travel . He is omnipresent.
MB

To be truly omnipresent one must be omnitemporal. God doesn't merely move through all points of time, He equally exists in all points of time, while at all points outside of time. There is no other way to describe it.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Since God ALONE is self existent, ALL other things had a creation point,

This would include "time" itself....

would he be by himself somewhere in the eternal past

,

No, the word:

past

assumes the existence of what we "understand" to be time...Time is viewed as a facet of the initial creative decree...Think "Cosmological Singularity"...This is as effective as I can explain it:

Genesis 1:1

IV.) In the beginning (origin of Time)

V.) GOD
This first occurrence of the divine name is the Hebrew Elohim, which stresses
omnipotence. This is the name used throughout the first chapter of Genesis. The im ending
is the Hebrew plural ending, so that Elohim can actually mean "gods," and is so translated
in various passages referring to the gods of the heathen (e.g., Psalm 96:5). Thus Elohim is
a plural name with a singular meaning, a "uni-plural" noun, thereby suggesting the
uni-plurality of the God-head. God is one, yet more than one.

VI.) Created
This is the word bara, used always only of the work of God. Only God can create - that is,
call into existence that which had no existence. He "calleth those things which be not as
though they were" (Romans 4:17). "...The worlds were framed by the word of God, so that
things which are seen were not made of things which do appear" (Hebrews 11:3) Men can
"make" things or "form" things, but they cannot create things. Hebrew asah and yatsar,
respectively. The work of making and forming consists of organizing already existing
materials into more complex systems, whereas the act of creation is that of speaking into
existence something whose materials had no previous existence, except in the mind and
power of God.

VII.) Heaven
This word is the Hebrew shamayim which, like Elohim, is a plural noun, and can be
translated "heaven" or "heavens,". It does not mean the stars of heaven, which were made
only on the fourth day of Creation Week (Genesis 1:16), and which constitute the "host" of
heaven, not heaven itself (Genesis 2:1) It seems, however, that the essential meaning of
the word corresponds to our modern term space.

VIII.) Earth
The term "earth" refers to the component of matter in the universe.

IX.) Thus...

Time,

Space,

Matter...

X.) Genesis 1:1 paraphrased:
"The transcendent, omnipotent Godhead called into existence the space-mass-time universe."

 

[AresMan]

Angels are a separate issue...without going into detail, my view would be that Angels are a facet of the initial creative act as well, which probably had their becoming somewhere between day 1 and day 3.....They were a witness to God's "laying the foundations of the Earth"....(day 3) and they "shouted for joy"....This is often thought to mean we should pre-date their creation prior to or on day 3...(one shouldn't be dogmatic though) but it is probable that they did not pre-date any intial creative decree.

Exactly.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Therefore, angels could not have been created "before" anything that pertains to "the beginning" whose context is the Creation.

 

[MorseOp]

Let me add something new to chew on. I have often used this exercise to illustrate the eternality of God.

Right where you are I want you to close your eyes and think of nothing. That is right, think of absolutely nothing. I will wait.

...

....

.....

......

Are you thinking of nothing yet? Hard to do, right? There is a second part of this exercise. Try to think of a time when there was nothing. You cannot do that either. Our minds cannot fathom true "nothing." God created us as finite. We can only comprehend what is revealed to us. God transcends time and space. He existed before creation. That is why we must take Genesis 1:1 by faith; trusting even though we truly cannot comprehend.

 

[Yeshua1]

Let me add something new to chew on. I have often used this exercise to illustrate the eternality of God.

Right where you are I want you to close your eyes and think of nothing. That is right, think of absolutely nothing. I will wait.

...

....

.....

......

Are you thinking of nothing yet? Hard to do, right? There is a second part of this exercise. Try to think of a time when there was nothing. You cannot do that either. Our minds cannot fathom true "nothing." God created us a finite. We can only comprehend what is revealed to us. God transcends time and space. He existed before creation. That is why we must take Genesis 1:1 by faith; trusting even though we truly cannot comprehend.

God ALONE existed somewhere before there was anything but him anywhere!

 

[Yeshua1]

Exactly.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Therefore, angels could not have been created "before" anything that pertains to "the beginning" whose context is the Creation.

god existed period... When NOTHING else did yet, correct?

 

[freeatlast]

God ALONE existed somewhere before there was anything but him anywhere!

You mean that God existed in nothingness?

 

[Yeshua1]

You mean that God existed in nothingness?

No, rather that God was all that was!

 

[freeatlast]

No, rather that God was all that was!

How do you know?

 

[Yeshua1]

How do you know?

jesus created all things, so everything else other than Godhead had a beginning!

ONLY God is eternal, for if anything else existed with Him, he would not be God!