God's existence

[pilgrimspen]

Well let's just put it this way... our feeble mind really cannot comprehend GOD's ways... you know his ways are not our ways.... there are things that we will not understand that GOD knows. :thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

What changes if the earth is 12,000 years old instead of 6,000? God still created it, right?



Because Satan was in the Garden of Eden, whispering in Eve's ear, to get her to DOUBT GOD. That's the whole point. Satan isn't an innocent bystander! He actively takes part in rebellion towards God!



Did the donkey speak of its own volition?

"And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?" - Numbers 22:28.

No, God did it to get Balaam's attention.

So you agree that we have a young earth creation, and not millions of years old correct?

 

[webdog]

So, how many "days" was it before God decided to create the light, and divide it from the darkness? Before that point, what was time?

Since days are a measurement of time, there were no "days" before any of His creation.

 

[saturneptune]

Since days are a measurement of time, there were no "days" before any of His creation.

The difference between eternity and time is one of the great mysteries our mind cannot comprehend. I heard an illustration one time that we live on a line similar to a ruler. We are all born and die at some point on the line, as are all events from the beginning to the end of time. However, God sees from above the line, and it all happens at once, kind of like us looking at a ruler laying on a table. Everything happens at once for lack of a better term.

 

[webdog]

The difference between eternity and time is one of the great mysteries our mind cannot comprehend. I heard an illustration one time that we live on a line similar to a ruler. We are all born and die at some point on the line, as are all events from the beginning to the end of time. However, God sees from above the line, and it all happens at once, kind of like us looking at a ruler laying on a table. Everything happens at once for lack of a better term.

I heard something similar using a blank paper with a line drawn from the middle to the edge of the paper. If the line represents time and the paper existence, there is no point on the paper God doesn't exist in. Time and humanity go hand in hand. We have a beginning but no end...same with time. God has no beginning and no end, hence God cannot be bound to time nor could it exist "before" God (an oxymoron as there is no before time...yet we have no other way of describing it)

on a side note this is one reason I rejected the tulip as the tulip doctrine must be linear, determinism in whole is.

 

[Ceegen]

So you agree that we have a young earth creation, and not millions of years old correct?

What difference does it make if the earth is millions of years old? Who am I to tell God exactly when He created the earth? The age of the earth changes nothing! The bible says "God created..." and I believe that 100%. How or when, is not imporant to me.

Evolution, no matter how good a theory it seems to be, can't be true. Life has never, ever, spontaneously came from nothing. Life, in textbook biological terms, only comes from life. This is why it doesn't matter if the earth is millions or billions of years old, it doesn't matter how much time has actually passed since it was created because life didn't spring forth from nothing.

Evidence that evolution's abiogenesis theory is incorrect is held in the unchanging DNA of plants that reproduce asexually. (That means, no seeds, no fertilization). For thousands of years that we know of for sure, they haven't changed at all.

Plus, not to mention the dinosaur tracks that were found along side human tracks out there near that river in Texas. There is evidence of a biblical flood, but it's being covered up by people with a vested interest in Darwin's theory for the simple fact that they can't handle being wrong. They spend thousands of dollars and spend years of their life dedicated to studying these things, so it must be true!

Right? They think so, and in the process, when they stuble upon evidence to the contrary... They throw it out because it doesn't "fit the model". They try to explain things without the benefit of God, because they are in denial that He exists.

 

[Ceegen]

Since days are a measurement of time, there were no "days" before any of His creation.

What is a "day", then? One 12 hour period of light, and one 12 hour period of dark? This is merely an observance of changes. We see that it is light in the daytime and dark at night. We observe the change, and know it to be true. But don't confuse that with how God sees time, to whom time has no effect. God created time, because God created. Changes happened, and God observed these changes... "And God saw that it was good."

Time is whatever God says it is. This is why a lot of bible passages concerning prophecy, are written in the present-tense, because God already knows for sure what is going to happen. He sees things as they are, because He sees it all!

 

[webdog]

God is unchanging, hence there was no time before He created it.

 

[Yeshua1]

I accept that the creation was not around prior to what we have now, but not that that God was all alone for eternity past until He created what we see.

So you see the Lord and His creation always existing at same 'time"?

That would make his creation eternally begotten by Him, like jesus is?

How could there be a creation point then, and why wouldn't it be almost pantheism?

 

[freeatlast]

What difference does it make if the earth is millions of years old? Who am I to tell God exactly when He created the earth? The age of the earth changes nothing! The bible says "God created..." and I believe that 100%. How or when, is not imporant to me.

Evolution, no matter how good a theory it seems to be, can't be true. Life has never, ever, spontaneously came from nothing. Life, in textbook biological terms, only comes from life. This is why it doesn't matter if the earth is millions or billions of years old, it doesn't matter how much time has actually passed since it was created because life didn't spring forth from nothing.

Evidence that evolution's abiogenesis theory is incorrect is held in the unchanging DNA of plants that reproduce asexually. (That means, no seeds, no fertilization). For thousands of years that we know of for sure, they haven't changed at all.

Plus, not to mention the dinosaur tracks that were found along side human tracks out there near that river in Texas. There is evidence of a biblical flood, but it's being covered up by people with a vested interest in Darwin's theory for the simple fact that they can't handle being wrong. They spend thousands of dollars and spend years of their life dedicated to studying these things, so it must be true!

Right? They think so, and in the process, when they stuble upon evidence to the contrary... They throw it out because it doesn't "fit the model". They try to explain things without the benefit of God, because they are in denial that He exists.

You don't have to tell God anything. He is telling you how long it took and you need to stop calling Himsaying what He says is wrong and start to believe Him. As to what it matters claiming the bible does not mean what it says is exactly what satan does so we need to decide who we are working for.
Go here and watch these videos http://www.gerald285.com/index.php?p=1_26_Six-day-Creation and then get back with me.

 

[freeatlast]

So you see the Lord and His creation always existing at same 'time"?

That would make his creation eternally begotten by Him, like jesus is?

How could there be a creation point then, and why wouldn't it be almost pantheism?

I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Ceegen]

You don't have to tell God anything. He is telling you how long it took and you need to stop calling Himsaying what He says is wrong and start to believe Him. As to what it matters claiming the bible does not mean what it says is exactly what satan does so we need to decide who we are working for.
Go here and watch these videos http://www.gerald285.com/index.php?p=1_26_Six-day-Creation and then get back with me.

One day to God "is as" a thousand years, and a thousand years "is as" one day. It really is that simple. You don't have to complicate it with the opinion of "so-called" experts, or you fall in the trap of holding the doctrine of man higher than the Word of God.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" - John 3:10.

I'm not saying God creating the earth took millions of years, tens of thousands of years, or just a few days... I'm just saying it doesn't matter how long it actually took. To God, time is irrelevant, but it was imporant to Him to break it down to us, for our benefit. The real question, is why? Why 7 days and not 10 days, or 24 years, or two minutes?

 

[John of Japan]

Just read this very interesting (except for the completely irrelevvant comments on Cal/Arm) thread. Lots of great points, and I can think of some arguments that haven't been made (time is variable because of relativity, but God is not; "was" in John 1:1 is imperfect tense).

But this solves it for me: "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer" (Rev. 10:6).

 

[Ceegen]

Just read this very interesting (except for the completely irrelevvant comments on Cal/Arm) thread. Lots of great points, and I can think of some arguments that haven't been made (time is variable because of relativity, but God is not; "was" in John 1:1 is imperfect tense).

But this solves it for me: "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer" (Rev. 10:6).

Time is relative! You said it! Time is, to God, whatever He wants it to be! It doesn't matter what we think it is, it only matters what God thinks it is. And, if Jesus IS God in the flesh as we so believe, being Christians, then we must also say that whatever God said in the OT is really just what Jesus said, too.

So, anything Jesus said in the NT, applies to the OT as well. The law can not be broken.

"All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:" - Matthew 13:34

We are the multitudes! We are the masses! Jesus was speaking to us in parables, even in the OT. This is why one day "is as" a thousand years.

 

[humblethinker]

But this solves it for me: "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer" (Rev. 10:6).

Nice try but, JoJ, is this not simply speaking of the fact that there will no longer be a delay in the proceedings (I think they were judgements, right?).

See Barnes:

That there should be time no longer - This is a very important expression, as it is the substance of what the angel affirmed in so solemn a manner; and as the interpretation of the whole passage depends on it. It seems now to be generally agreed among critics that our translation does not give the true sense, inasmuch:

(a) as that was not the close of human affairs, and

(b) as he proceeds to state what would occur after that.
...
"That it cannot mean, literally, that there would be time no longer, or that the world would then come to an end absolutely, for the speaker proceeds to disclose events that would occur after that, extending far into tim future Revelation 10:11, and the detail that follows Revelation 11 before the sounding of the seventh trumpet is such as to occupy a considerable period, and the seventh trumpet is also yet to sound. No fair construction of the language, therefore, would require us to understand this as meaning that the affairs of the world were then to terminate."

See Clarke:

That there should be time no longer - That the great counsels relative to the events already predicted should be immediately fulfilled, and that there should be no longer delay. This has no reference to the day of judgment.

See Gill:

'that there should be time no longer' which is not to be understood of the cessation of time, and the swallowing of it up in eternity, at the end of all things, when it will be no more measured out by the revolutions of the sun and moon, which will then be no more; for this did not take place upon the angel's oath, or at the time this vision refers to; for after this, there is to be time for the seventh angel to sound his trumpet in, though perhaps that is excepted in the next verse; and after the sounding of that, there will be the space of a thousand years, in which Christ will reign with his people on earth; and after that there will be some space of time for the Gog and Magog army to attack the beloved city; all which will be before the end of all things, or before eternity, properly speaking, takes place; and besides, such an illustrious appearing of Christ as before described, and so solemn an oath as is here made, do not seem necessary to ascertain a truth which nobody doubts of; and everyone knows that after this world, and all things in it are at an end, time will be no more.

See Vincent's Word Studies:

Should be time no longer (χρόνος οὐκ ἔσται ἔπι)

Rev., correctly, shall be, etc. The meaning is not, as popularly understood, that time shall cease to exist, but that there shall be no more delay (so Rev., in margin) before the fulfillment of the divine purposes respecting the Church on earth.

See Wesley's notes and JFB's commentary.

 

[webdog]

Nice try but, JoJ, is this not simply speaking of the fact that there will no longer be a delay in the proceedings (I think they were judgements, right?).

See Barnes:


See Clarke:


See Gill:


See Vincent's Word Studies:


See Wesley's notes and JFB's commentary.

Good point. As long as we will be human, and there will be a physical creation, there will be time. Like us, time has a beginning but no end.

 

[humblethinker]

Good point. As long as we will be human, and there will be a physical creation, there will be time.

Webdog, is Jesus no longer human? Is he no longer incarnate? Will he cease to be incarnate and if so when or when did he?

Like us, time has a beginning but no end.

While the marking of time was created on Day 4 and therefore has a beginning I do not believe that temporality was/is a created thing. I believe that temporality is concomitant with God's Triune existence.

Psalm 102:27 But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end.
This verse describes an everlasting temporal state. God has years and will always have them and they will never come to an end.

2 Peter 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
This description, this 'fact', does not align with an atemporal view of a God to Whom duration is only a theory. It does however align nicely with a temporal view of an everlasting God who has and forevermore will experience duration, which is why the relativity expressed in the verse emphasises the insignifigance of our perception of a 'long' metered duration compared to a 'short' metered duration. But, what is inescapable is that the verse confirms the existence of duration, which is impossible in an atemporal reality. Now, one could claim that the Bible does not mean what it is saying here and claim that it is speaking anthropomorphically but really, this appeal is just popping up way too much!

 

[webdog]

Webdog, is Jesus no longer human? Is he no longer incarnate? Will he cease to be incarnate and if so when or when did he?

Of course...what from my reply would have you believe otherwise?

 

[humblethinker]

Of course...what from my reply would have you believe otherwise?

You're good... I just expressed it poorly. I gues I was just wanting clarification and now I understand you better. Sorry and thanks.

 

[saturneptune]

I woke up at 4 am, this morning and went outside. The sky was clear as it could be, and there right in a line was the moon, Jupiter and Venus. I got out the telescope and observed them until the sun rose. The thought went through my mind, what a beautiful creation by the Lord. I cannot imagine how anyone could not think there is a God who made all of this.

Knowing there is a Creator only takes obervation and common sense. Believing the Gospel is a step beyond that because of the element of faith. An athiest has to be the stupidest person on earth.