God's existence

[webdog]

On a now closed thread, the last post was the following...

I'm glad you said this about the saying that "God lives outside of time." Agree totally. It should not be overlooked by us that this way of describing God is not found in Scripture. And if God - in the only book we have that tells about Himself - chooses not to describe Himself this way, and often chooses to use time statements, maybe we should do likewise.

To argue to someone that "God is outside of time" is to invite one of two wrong answers: He is, He isn't. The first is not found in Scripture. The second implies that He is somehow not sovereign over time. Best to be silent on things that God is silent on.

To use the phrase makes one seem smart, and has a bullying tendency on disagreers, but we are all merely semi-ignorant children when it comes to the things of God. We'd best stay very close to God's actual words.

Let me see if I got this right...time (a created entity by God) is the only place God exists since it is not found in Scripture that He is outside of time? How about His self designation I AM? How about the many anthropomorphism's about things occurring or being decided before time?

 

[preachinjesus]

I simply don't understand how someone can claim that there isn't Scriptural support for Hof being outside of time when, in the creation event, God came from a place outside of time to create time.

 

[MB]

On a now closed thread, the last post was the following...



Let me see if I got this right...time (a created entity by God) is the only place God exists since it is not found in Scripture that He is outside of time? How about His self designation I AM? How about the many anthropomorphism's about things occurring or being decided before time?

Scripture please?
I'm sorry but the measurement of time it's self is what God created by the counting of days and nights. I just do not remember God's word saying "and God created time" Even where the word says before the foundation of the world notes a place in time. Where does the Word say before time began? and certainly it is not unreasonable to questioning the idea of being out side of time since all we know exist with in it.
Being out side of time is some ones wild imagination at work. A syfy writer must have dreamed this up. After all even when we spend eternity with Christ. The word eternity describes endless time.
MB

 

[Catalyst]

On a now closed thread, the last post was the following...



Let me see if I got this right...time (a created entity by God) is the only place God exists since it is not found in Scripture that He is outside of time? How about His self designation I AM? How about the many anthropomorphism's about things occurring or being decided before time?

If you accept God as the creator of everything there is, then God existed before anything that is. Else, he'd be not the creator, but the great architect, or manipulator.

If God existed before anything that is, that is before matter, then time, being a measure of matter, didn't exist yet either.

Therefore, you could also surmise that if God existed before time, to God's awareness there is no beginning middle or end. It's all the same time, and an infinite number times, simultaneously.

So when God created ....whatever was first, he created a finished product, which encompasses the end as well. He said, BE and it "BE"ed. It's like making a plaster of paris mold. You take the powder, mix the water, spit in it for luck, pour it into a mold, let it set, and whittle away all the parts that don't belong.

For God, He said sculpture be. The sculpture was complete, the plaster was drying, the mold was being made, the materials the plaster was made from were coming into existance, the dinosaur that died that later fed the earth, to become processed to be the minerals and materials to make the plaster from, all of that, plus, the dust the sculpture become, the place the wind took the dust, the butterflies eyes it got into, the wind wave that was formed, the tsunami that resulted and crashed into florida wiping all far left democrats, all at the same "awareness" to God.

Using Time to discuss God would be like using colors to a blind man. It would fall in the classification of words we call anthropomorphisms.

With no beginning middle or end, there just is. So if you try to imagine what seeing the beginning middle and ends of something, then the beginning middle and ends of the things that make the something, and so on and so forth, that's God awareness.

 

[webdog]

Scripture please?
I'm sorry but the measurement of time it's self is what God created by the counting of days and nights. I just do not remember God's word saying "and God created time" Even where the word says before the foundation of the world notes a place in time. Where does the Word say before time began? and certainly it is not unreasonable to questioning the idea of being out side of time since all we know exist with in it.
Being out side of time is some ones wild imagination at work. A syfy writer must have dreamed this up. After all even when we spend eternity with Christ. The word eternity describes endless time.
MB

You even admit time is a measurement tied to creation...its unbelievable you think God is bound to His own creation

 

[Cypress]

You even admit time is a measurement tied to creation...its unbelievable you think God is bound to His own creation

Webdog, MB does not admit what you state. Re-read and see that the measurement of time is what mb says God created. Big and important difference there.:love2:

 

[HankD]

Scripture please?
Where does the Word say before time began?MB

The first 3 words of the English Bible.

In the beginning...

Eternity has no beginning.

HankD

 

[freeatlast]

Time is any period when something or someone exists. God has always been so time has always been. Time is the result of God's existence. How it is designated is the only thing that has changed.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Time is any period when something or someone exists. God has always been so time has always been. Time is the result of God's existence. How it is designated is the only thing that has changed.

Where did you get that definition of time? Granted...time is ostensibly impossible to define without assuming it, see your quote:

period

this assumes a definition of existing time. I have never heard of it defined like this though. That being said...I have learned to define it as: that measure whereby events can stand in relation with each other as earlier than and later than...or something to that effect. (this also is circular). I fail to see how there was a succession of events prior to the creative decree.
If time existed along with God... then either temporal becoming itself is either necessary and exists a se, or it is itself a facet or property of God's very being. Either option seems to me implausible. I believe time, space and matter are inherently inter-dependent and "time" itself was part of the creative decree vis a vis Genesis 1:1 "In the Beginning" (time) God created the "heavens" (space) and the "Earth" (matter).

 

[HankD]

Where did you get that definition of time? Granted...time is ostensibly impossible to define without assuming it, see your quote: this assumes a definition of existing time. I have never heard of it defined like this though. That being said...I have learned to define it as: that measure whereby events can stand in relation with each other as earlier than and later than...or something to that effect. (this also is circular). I fail to see how there was a succession of events prior to the creative decree.
If time existed along with God... then either temporal becoming itself is either necessary and exists a se, or it is itself a facet or property of God's very being. Either option seems to me implausible. I believe time, space and matter are inherently inter-dependent and "time" itself was part of the creative decree vis a vis Genesis 1:1 "In the Beginning" (time) God created the "heavens" (space) and the "Earth" (matter).

I like to add one more element: Motion (although gravity - attraction of masses, is another possibility).

...and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.​

without motion there is no way to measure time.

HankD

 

[HeirofSalvation]

I like to add one more element: Motion (although gravity - attraction of masses, is another possibility).

...and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.​

without motion there is no way to measure time.

HankD

AHHH!! Yes...precisely...that is to say, at least in vs. two. Henry Morris' book "The Genesis Record" discusses that in some detail....I just taught on that in S.S. last Sunday!!! The Spirit "moved" (shook, fluttered, vibrated...) to make the "formless and void" Earth take on it's "compass, circle, or form" Great book Genesis is....:thumbs::thumbs::godisgood:

 

[freeatlast]

I like to add one more element: Motion (although gravity - attraction of masses, is another possibility).

...and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.​

without motion there is no way to measure time.

HankD

Hank I do not believe that Time has to be measured to be time.

 

[reformed_baptist]

Perhaps we have to be somewhat careful in what we say in regards to such subjects. We are finite beings existing in a finite created order. God is infinite therefore by definition there is much about him, and his existence that we simply cannot fathom (Is 55:8-9)

The things we do know are that;

1) God is omnipresent - therefore he is present in time, and if there is a place that exists beyond time he must be there as well.
2) Time does not pass in the same way for God as it does for us, 2 Pe 3:8
3) We are temporal beings created in time, which suggests our eternity will involve time in some fashion.

However the idea that God exists outside of time and teherfore sees all times as if they happened at once finds no support in the bible in my existimation. Rather God knows what the end will be simply because he has alreday determined it.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

"A man's 'free'-will cannot cure him even of the tooth ache, or of a sore finger; and yet he madly thinks it is in its power to cure his soul." -Augustus Toplady

Welcome to BB!! By the way....what Moron actually believes that particular idea the inestimable Mr. Toplady just stated?? Did anyone (of note) ever claim that? Does Mr. Toplady know of any respectable Arminian or non-Cal Theologians who claim this? Can he quote them? Just curious.....sort of.

 

[HankD]

Hank I do not believe that Time has to be measured to be time.

Agreed.

I didn't say it couldn't exist without motion (although there is a metaphysical debate for that idea) but that it couldn't be measured without motion.

God who is the Creator does not need a clock.

You and I only know time as a function of the earth turning on it's axis (seconds, minutes, hours, days, months, years, centuries, millennia)
because He has set the time standard of this world in our hearts.
I doubt that this is the only standard of time that God uses.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.​

HankD​

 

[reformed_baptist]

Welcome to BB!!

Thanks for the welcome, I think

By the way....what Moron actually believes that particular idea the inestimable Mr. Toplady just stated?? Did anyone (of note) ever claim that? Does Mr. Toplady know of any respectable Arminian or non-Cal Theologians who claim this? Can he quote them? Just curious.....sort of.

Well, let me see, beginning his christain life as a close associate of John Wesley and also writing a 700 page treatise on calvinism being the historical position of the Church of England - I would imagine Mr Toplady is emminently qualified to discuss the subject.

As to the meaning of the quote well it seems quite straightforward to me, the human will can only operate within certain constraints can it not?

For example when I awoke this morning I was not free to choose whatever pair of socks I wanted, no I was limited to the socks in my sock drawer (and those in the wash basket if I really wanted them.)

The point is that because our wills operate within certain constraints, there are things we simply cannot will to do. I cannot jump off a building and fly - no matter how much I will it. Likewise Toplady is saying that no human person is able to cure relatively minor problem simply by the power of his will - how much less then can he cure the worst he has ever faced (sin) through his own will.

 

[Iconoclast]

Thanks for the welcome, I think



Well, let me see, beginning his christain life as a close associate of John Wesley and also writing a 700 page treatise on calvinism being the historical position of the Church of England - I would imagine Mr Toplady is emminently qualified to discuss the subject.

As to the meaning of the quote well it seems quite straightforward to me, the human will can only operate within certain constraints can it not?

For example when I awoke this morning I was not free to choose whatever pair of socks I wanted, no I was limited to the socks in my sock drawer (and those in the wash basket if I really wanted them.)

The point is that because our wills operate within certain constraints, there are things we simply cannot will to do. I cannot jump off a building and fly - no matter how much I will it. Likewise Toplady is saying that no human person is able to cure relatively minor problem simply by the power of his will - how much less then can he cure the worst he has ever faced (sin) through his own will.

Welcome to the BB brother:thumbs::wavey::applause::thumbs:
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

 

[reformed_baptist]

Welcome to the BB brother
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

That's the verse I was searching for (Jer 13:23), thanks for the welcome

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Well, let me see, beginning his christain life as a close associate of John Wesley

But, not BEING John Wesley (Calvin actually knew Servetus too you [possibly] recall)....he would merely be lying if he claimed Wesley would state that...I didn't ask you to quote a Calvinist being dishonest...I asked you to quote someone (of note) i.e. Wesley making such a claim...you are 0 and 1 so far.

and also writing a 700 page treatise on calvinism being the historical position of the Church of England - I would imagine Mr Toplady is emminently qualified to discuss the subject.

a 700-page treatise on What?????? Allow your own (ill-advised) words to condemn you:

on calvinism

And, yet....this was supposedly a quote about the position of "Arminians" and "Wesley"???? (a Methodist I thunked??) Again, please quote an authority on "Arminianism" not "Calvinism" (they are not the same you see, [this seems to escape you])
Kudos, btw...on quoting the "historical position" of paedo-baptists who have now officially authorized a liturgy for the ceremony of a homosexual marriage. I note that John Shelby Spong is yet a member in good standing...just sayin'

As to the meaning of the quote well it seems quite straightforward to me, the human will can only operate within certain constraints can it not?

ABSOLUTELY!!!

Every Arminian worth his weight in paper already knows this...what are you trying to do??? Break new ground??? DUH!!!! Free-will ALWAYS was understood to have limits... or did your determinist masters not teach you this?

For example when I awoke this morning I was not free to choose whatever pair of socks I wanted, no I was limited to the socks in my sock drawer (and those in the wash basket if I really wanted them.)

Duh....again..."Which way did he go George, which way did he go...." Everyone already knows this, so did Wesley, so do all respectable Arminians...Did you HONESTLY think otherwise???? Someone robbed you blind when they stole your tuition money.

The point is that because our wills operate within certain constraints, there are things we simply cannot will to do.

No kidding.......:sleep:

I cannot jump off a building and fly -

REALLY!!! I DID NOT KNOW THAT!!!

Likewise Toplady is saying that no human person is able to cure relatively minor problem simply by the power of his will -

Likewise....so would Wesley...have said that, and your congenital retard Toplady....had he ever listened to the man, would have known that Wesley understood that as well....

how much less then can he cure the worst he has ever faced (sin) through his own will.

He couldn't...this is why confessional Arminianism understands and purports the idea of "prevenient grace"....your inestimable Mr. Toplady is either:
1.) Dishonest intentionally about Arminian Theology
or
2.) Simply an ignoramus about what it teaches

You Pick....

Sorry that I was harsh with my initial post, and am, indeed, harsh with this one...but it serves no purpose to erect and destroy "straw-man" arguments...and your signature is indeed one of them. On B.B.....there will be plenty of intelligent people who will take umbrage at what you say, and how you say it....I get put in my place all the time.

My apologies that I am not one who is more gentle at first meet, MANY would have taken you to "task" (so to speak) in a much more genteel form...but, well, that is not who I am...I will go for the jugular almost every time. I do truly apologize...

However harshly I have responded...Welcome to BB...and..."iron sharpeneth iron".

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Welcome to the BB brother:thumbs::wavey::applause::thumbs:
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Yes.....indeed, I have preached this one before read it again:

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? [then] may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

This verse is speaking of those who are actually "accustomed" to do evil....or do I mis-quote God here....this does not prove Original Sin....it only states that those who are "accustomed"....have/posses a nature to engage in wickedness and therefore do not easily change...granted...the leaopard and the Ethiopian are BOTH (by nature) what they are...but this verse qualifies the "nature" by what one is "accustomed" to...Please provide the Scripture which states that they were determinatively created/born this way due to a failure of Adam's....ANYONE?????

Cals's are 0-4 (by my count) of "proving" Original Sin....I have always accepted Original Sin as Bible truth....and yet, somehow...no Calvinist has yet to actually provide the Scripture which teaches it??? What is going on here? The more I am listening to Cals...the less their Theology makes sense!! Please provide an ACTUAL SCRIPTURE!!!! which says what you are claiming it says!!!