God's knowledge debate

[Winman]

First, no scripture says God knows the end from the beginning. That is simply a misquote. The verse says God declares the end from the beginning.

Second, consider this assertion: Remember that God is also eternal, so God isn't sitting there not knowing, and then searching and finding out. This assertion simply declares God does not mean what He says, when He says He searches our hearts. This false doctriine relys on nullifying scripture after scripture, and then adding to scripture after scripture, to pour a man-made doctrine into the text. Fiddlesticks. Where is the beef!

Van, I don't dismiss scripture. When God says he searches the heart, I believe it.

And you are correct, he did say he declares the end from the beginning. That is what happens when you quote from memory, I should have verified what the scripture said before I posted that. My error.

 

[freeatlast]

Van, I don't dismiss scripture. When God says he searches the heart, I believe it.

And you are correct, he did say he declares the end from the beginning. That is what happens when you quote from memory, I should have verified what the scripture said before I posted that. My error.

Winman when scripture says that God searches the heart what do you understand that to mean? Is that not saying He knows the intents of a person at that moment in time?

 

[jbh28]

I am not sure that is a good proof text and here is why. I believe that God knows everything as there is nothing except it come from God (I am speaking laws of nature, material things, spirit beings, and such). At the same time I do not believe that God decides everything that will take place. He has decided the beginning from the end, but in between He allows it to take its course bringing everything into His plan.

However for the sake of argument let me ask a question. If God knows all of history for all eternity how does He know? Does he look down through history and see what will happen or does He ordain (cause) every single event in all eternity even your occasional hiccup?

Not relevant really. God ordaining(which doesn't equal cause) all things or not doesn't make a difference really. I say this because God can know all things and not ordain something. I'm not saying that is true, but it's possible. God is also eternal, so all knowledge is going to be as well.


And as I stated earlier, I'm using the passages together. I never form a doctrine on a single passage. The Bible is clear that God knows all. It amazes me that some will deny this. There are a couple that realize the tension in Scripture, but don't deny God's omniscience. That's different from denying the biblical truth of God's omniscience.

 

[jbh28]

Van, I don't dismiss scripture. When God says he searches the heart, I believe it.

And you are correct, he did say he declares the end from the beginning. That is what happens when you quote from memory, I should have verified what the scripture said before I posted that. My error.

Of course how can you declare something you don't know

 

[freeatlast]

Not relevant really. God ordaining(which doesn't equal cause) all things or not doesn't make a difference really. I say this because God can know all things and not ordain something. I'm not saying that is true, but it's possible. God is also eternal, so all knowledge is going to be as well.


And as I stated earlier, I'm using the passages together. I never form a doctrine on a single passage. The Bible is clear that God knows all. It amazes me that some will deny this. There are a couple that realize the tension in Scripture, but don't deny God's omniscience. That's different from denying the biblical truth of God's omniscience.

OK I think, but what about those two questions I asked? Also now I have another question. If "God ordaining(which doesn't equal cause" what is ordaining to you?

 

[quantumfaith]

Not relevant really. God ordaining(which doesn't equal cause) all things or not doesn't make a difference really. I say this because God can know all things and not ordain something. I'm not saying that is true, but it's possible. God is also eternal, so all knowledge is going to be as well.


And as I stated earlier, I'm using the passages together. I never form a doctrine on a single passage. The Bible is clear that God knows all. It amazes me that some will deny this. There are a couple that realize the tension in Scripture, but don't deny God's omniscience. That's different from denying the biblical truth of God's omniscience.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

In all honesty there seems to me to be many tensions in scripture, although not contradictory, but definitely many things in juxtaposition with one another. What say you?

 

[jbh28]

OK I think, but what about those two questions I asked? Also now I have another question. If "God ordaining(which doesn't equal cause" what is ordaining to you?

Not relevant. This is about God's knowledge, not God ordaining. Don't want to deviate off topic.

 

[Winman]

Winman when scripture says that God searches the heart what do you understand that to mean? Is that not saying He knows the intents of a person at that moment in time?

I am saying I am not sure. The scriptures say Jesus knew from the beginning who believed not, and who should betray him. I take this to be foreknowledge of who will believe.

At the same time you have David praying for God to search him to know his heart, and to try him and know his mind (Psa 139:23-24). This sounds in time. I would think David being a prophet would understand how this works.

There must be some way these statements are true and do not contradict each other, but I do not know the answer.

 

[freeatlast]

Not relevant. This is about God's knowledge, not God ordaining. Don't want to deviate off topic.

So then tell me how is this knowledge? Is He looking down through history or is he ordaining (causing) everything so as to know? Or some other way, please explain.

 

[Van]

Hopefully it is clear to all objective readers, those that claim the bible teaches God knows everything imaginable, have provided no sound evidence from scripture. Instead they offer philosophy.

No one disputes that God knows everything He has chosen to know. That is the definition of inherent omniscience. What the other side argues is God cannot choose to not know stuff, so when God says I will remember no more forever, He does not mean what He says. Similarly, when God says "now I know" He does not really mean it, because He had to know it beforehand because He is eternal.

This false doctrine of God not having the power to cast knowledge out of His mind, or choose not to obtain knowledge, is unbiblical. It has been supported in this thread by nullifying some verses and adding to others. QED

 

[preacher4truth]

Hopefully it is clear to all objective readers, those that claim the bible teaches God knows everything imaginable, have provided no sound evidence from scripture. Instead they offer philosophy.

No one disputes that God knows everything He has chosen to know. That is the definition of inherent omniscience. What the other side argues is God cannot choose to not know stuff, so when God says I will remember no more forever, He does not mean what He says. Similarly, when God says "now I know" He does not really mean it, because He had to know it beforehand because He is eternal.

This false doctrine of God not having the power to cast knowledge out of His mind, or choose not to obtain knowledge, is unbiblical. It has been supported in this thread by nullifying some verses and adding to others. QED

Not even close to truth. You've been given sound Scriptural evidence.

Whenever we see a passage that "seems" to deny Him being all knowing, when we know His "Omniscience" is an eternal truth, then we need to take another look at what was said and interpret it accordingly.

Scripture doesn't contradict. When God says He knows all things, that is a dogmatic statement of fact, it takes priority over other obscure passages that may seem to deny this truth.

To deny omniscience is to deny the truth of Scripture, and come up with a version of God that is not Scriptural.

I find it amazing that so many want to tear down the attributes of God so readily and hastily, and in turn exalt the "glory" and ability of man to a high and unscriptural level.

- Peace

 

[jbh28]

So then tell me how is this knowledge? Is He looking down through history or is he ordaining (causing) everything so as to know? Or some other way, please explain.

I'm not going to discuss the how on this thread. Start another one if you want.

Hopefully it is clear to all objective readers,

This is funny

those that claim the bible teaches God knows everything imaginable, have provided no sound evidence from scripture. Instead they offer philosophy.

Obviously truth telling isn't Van's strong point. We have given very clear "sound evidence from Scripture." Van instead pretends that we only offer philosophy. This isn't true. We have given very, very clear Scripture that God knows all, he knowledge has no limits(not knowing something is a limit...)
The rest has been answered, but Van would rather ignore the Scripture at stick with his flawed reasoning.

There is no reason for any of us to discuss this with him. Once a person rejects the Scripture passages, there is no further reason to discuss it.

P4t, you said it well when you spoke of clear vs obscure. When the Bible says that God knows everything, I don't say.."well, God doesn't really mean that." When God says He doesn't remember our sins anymore, he didn't say that the knowledge of the sins is lost. he said he "doesn't bring to mind" our sins. That's what remember means. Now I know, because in Abraham's time, he had proved himself. God is eternal. So if you are going to argue that God didn't know before Abraham did it, then you must also argue that God isn't eternal.

Psalm 147:5, Hebrews 4:13, Job 23:10, Psalm 103:14, Psalm 139:23,24, John 21:17, Proverbs 15:3, Genesis 16:13, Romans 11:33-36, I John 3:20, Job 42:2, Psalm 42:2, Psalm 139, Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, Acts 1:24, Job 37:16

nuff said.

 

[JesusFan]

Psalm 147:5, Hebrews 4:13, Job 23:10, Psalm 103:14, Psalm 139:23,24, John 21:17, Proverbs 15:3, Genesis 16:13, Romans 11:33-36, I John 3:20, Job 42:2, Psalm 42:2, Psalm 139, Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, Acts 1:24, Job 37:16

There are some things that may be difficult, but that doesn't negate the very clear biblical teaching that God "knows everything." One may say that God doesn't remember our sins. Sure, he doesn't "bring to mind" our sins. That doesn't mean he doesn't have knowledge of them. To teach this would negate ALL the other passages that say that God knows everything. It would also be reading something into the text that isn't there. It doesn't say God forgets. It doesn't say that God no longer knows. It says "remember no more." Any interpretation that teaches that God forgets is eisegesis.

The above is a typical assertion made by those who deny God is all powerful and does what He says. The doctrine of inherent omniscience does not teach God unintentionally “forgets.” The doctrine states He intentional removes the knowledge from His mind and remembers it no more forever. He puts the knowledge out of his mind.

Next we have the assertion the Bible teaches God knows everything. No verse or passage says or suggests this fiction. Not one. The Bible does say God is all knowing, but men have added God is all knowing about everything. This is simply adding to scripture.
They choose to define “all” as referring to everything imaginable in these verses, but define “all” to mean all of whatever group or subject the author has in mind elsewhere in scripture. Thus the doctrine is incoherent.

Does Psalm 147:5 say God’s understanding is infinite? No. The best translation of the word is innumerable. Which means it is beyond our ability to measure, thus unfathomable and unsearchable. But to conclude that understanding beyond our understanding is infinite is illogical and unnecessary. Thus an example of eisegesis.

Hebrews 4:13 refers to our thoughts and hidden motives being laid bare to God, and does not address two issues. Does God obtain, i.e search us, all the time or does He sometimes not search our hearts. The verse does not say. Does this knowledge of His creatures include creatures in existence, or does it extend to creatures not yet created. The verse does not say. So to conclude this verse supports the “everything imaginable” doctrine is again an example of eisegesis.

We could plow through all the listed verses and come to the same “where is the beef” conclusion, yet these verses were posted as if they actually supported the false doctrine.

IF God does not really know all things that can possible be known, how can He even be considered God?

What wouldn't He know per your theology?

can He get surprised, learn new things as h goes on?

is He based in Time, as we are?

How can he predict all future events, especially Revelation, IF He doesn't know eveything?

How can we have confidence in a God who is limited?

HOW is this view different than Open Theism? they say God "learns as he goes!"

 

[preacher4truth]

IF God does not really know all things that can possible be known, how can He even be considered God?

What wouldn't He know per your theology?

can He get surprised, learn new things as h goes on?

is He based in Time, as we are?

How can he predict all future events, especially Revelation, IF He doesn't know eveything?

How can we have confidence in a God who is limited?

HOW is this view different than Open Theism? they say God "learns as he goes!"

Part of their problem is in that they misunderstand words, meanings and contexts.

They take a more obscure text, and proof-text that to the supplanting of known truths. There are groups that use this same methodology, and it is erroneous to do so. I am not saying these are of these groups, only that they use the same methodology, which is faulty. Many unscriptural teachings have their roots in this methodology.

Somehow, through much study and teaching, we must help our fellow believers at the local church level to get beyond this.

There are too many passages that deal with and prove God as "all-knowing." Some attempt to reduce Him to our level as though we can teach Him anything. We cannot.

Also, check out this link, it's short and sheds a little light on this misnomer:

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/godallover.html

- Peace and Grace to His

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm not going to discuss the how on this thread. Start another one if you want.

This is funny

Obviously truth telling isn't Van's strong point. We have given very clear "sound evidence from Scripture." Van instead pretends that we only offer philosophy. This isn't true. We have given very, very clear Scripture that God knows all, he knowledge has no limits(not knowing something is a limit...)
The rest has been answered, but Van would rather ignore the Scripture at stick with his flawed reasoning.

There is no reason for any of us to discuss this with him. Once a person rejects the Scripture passages, there is no further reason to discuss it.

P4t, you said it well when you spoke of clear vs obscure. When the Bible says that God knows everything, I don't say.."well, God doesn't really mean that." When God says He doesn't remember our sins anymore, he didn't say that the knowledge of the sins is lost. he said he "doesn't bring to mind" our sins. That's what remember means. Now I know, because in Abraham's time, he had proved himself. God is eternal. So if you are going to argue that God didn't know before Abraham did it, then you must also argue that God isn't eternal.

Psalm 147:5, Hebrews 4:13, Job 23:10, Psalm 103:14, Psalm 139:23,24, John 21:17, Proverbs 15:3, Genesis 16:13, Romans 11:33-36, I John 3:20, Job 42:2, Psalm 42:2, Psalm 139, Proverbs 15:3, Jeremiah 16:17, Acts 1:24, Job 37:16

nuff said.

Brother, thanks for the kind gracious words.

Don't let those who have rejected your excellent biblical apology rattle you. The typical response even after showing adequate evidence has been employed and will continue to be "their out" no matter how many times you present it.

We serve an Omniscient God; "all-knowing."

- Peace

 

[quantumfaith]

Part of their problem is in that they misunderstand words, meanings and contexts.

They take a more obscure text, and proof-text that to the supplanting of known truths. There are groups that use this same methodology, and it is erroneous to do so. I am not saying these are of these groups, only that they use the same methodology, which is faulty. Many unscriptural teachings have their roots in this methodology.

Somehow, through much study and teaching, we must help our fellow believers at the local church level to get beyond this.

There are too many passages that deal with and prove God as "all-knowing." Some attempt to reduce Him to our level as though we can teach Him anything. We cannot.

Also, check out this link, it's short and sheds a little light on this misnomer:

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/godallover.html

- Peace and Grace to His

Could you qualify who "their" is?

 

[JesusFan]

Hopefully it is clear to all objective readers, those that claim the bible teaches God knows everything imaginable, have provided no sound evidence from scripture. Instead they offer philosophy.

Actually, offer the proof from the Bible and God Himself...
Bible clearly states NOTHING is hidden from Him!

No one disputes that God knows everything He has chosen to know. That is the definition of inherent omniscience. What the other side argues is God cannot choose to not know stuff, so when God says I will remember no more forever, He does not mean what He says. Similarly, when God says "now I know" He does not really mean it, because He had to know it beforehand because He is eternal.

its NOT that God has chosen what He can know , its that by his very nature He MUST know all than possibly be known!

This false doctrine of God not having the power to cast knowledge out of His mind, or choose not to obtain knowledge, is unbiblical. It has been supported in this thread by nullifying some verses and adding to others. QED

There are limitations even to what God can do!
cannot save any one apart from Cross of Christ, cannot commit Sin, cannot undo His divine attributes, as there are in perfect unison!

 

[Van]

Reply to Jesusfan,

IF God does not really know all things that can possible be known, how can He even be considered God?

What wouldn't He know per your theology?
Can He get surprised, learn new things as h goes on?
Is He based in Time, as we are?
How can he predict all future events, especially Revelation, IF He doesn't know eveything?
How can we have confidence in a God who is limited?
HOW is this view different than Open Theism? they say God "learns as he goes!"

1) God would not know what He has chosen not to know. Exactly how this is defined is a mystery.

2) Can God get surprised? I have answered this question about 4 times now and yet it is repeated again and again. I dealt with many of the scriptures used by Open Theists and demonstrated their view was not supported. No scripture indicates God is surprised in my opinion.

3) God can predict whatever He desires to make happen in the future and it will happen. Your view is that the "future" somehow exists in God's mind, but that is pagan philosophy. What the Bible says, see the OP, is that God causes the future to happen as He declares it will happen. Totally different view.

4) I have complete confidence in God and I believe what He says. When He says He will remember no more my sins, I accept that. My question for you is how can you claim to believe in the God of the Bible, when you say the Bible does not mean what it says. God said "now I know" which means He did not know beforehand. You deny God can limit His knowledge but scripture says He does.

5) I have taught already on Open Theism and presented why I believe it is false doctrine. See this thread: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=70837 Post #16 addresses God not being surprised.

 

[Rippon]

In Psalm 73:11 we read : They say, "How would God know? Does the Most High know anything? (2011 NIV)

In Spurgeon's Treasury of David he comments thusly:"Thus dare the ungodly speak. They flatter themselves that their oppressions and persecutions are unobserved of heaven. If there be a God,is he not too much occupied with other matters to know what is going on upon this world? So they console themselves if judgments be threatened. Boasting of their own knowledge,they yet dare to ask, 'Is there knowledge in the most High?' Well were they called foolish. A God,and not know! This is a solecism in language,a madness of thought. Such,however, is the acted insanity of the graceless theists of this age; theists in name,because avowed infidelity is disreputable,but atheists in practice beyond all question." ( Vol.3,pages 341,342)

 

[freeatlast]

I'm not going to discuss the how on this thread. Start another one if you want.

.

That is because you know your assumption is incorrect.