God's knowledge debate

[freeatlast]

What was the point of this. Are you just trying to pick a fight? This thread is about God knowing everything. Do you agree?

It pertains to this topic and when ignored it still needs an answer, but i assume you have no answer. So if you are asking does God know everything, yes as long as it is knowable. If the future is knowable how does He know it? Is it because He looks down through history or because he ordains (causes) every single event including your hiccups. Do you agree?

 

[jbh28]

It pertains to this topic and when ignored it still needs an answer, but i assume you have no answer.

I guess you are just trying to pick a fight. Start your own thread if you want to talk about it. don't whine because I won't go on a rabbit trail.

So if you are asking does God know everything, yes as long as it is knowable.

What's not "knowable"?

If the future is knowable how does He know it? Is it because He looks down through history or because he ordains (causes) every single event including your hiccups. Do you agree?

ordaining doesn't equal causing, and not relevant.

 

[Winman]

One of my favorite statements God made is "let us reason together". He didn't say "reason with me", He said "us...together".

How does omniscience reason, and for what purpose?
what does it mean to "reason" with another?

This is why I appeal to mystery...it is the only thing finite man CAN appeal to given what God has allowed us to know.

I like this verse too, and it shows Total Inability false. And this verse is concerning salvation itself, what does the whole verse say?

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Verse 18 concerns salvation. We could not reason with God if we are unable. And in verses 19 and 20 he shows that salvation is a matter of willingness and obedience. We do not steal salvation from God, we must come to him with a willing mind in submission, we must be obedient.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

If you obey God by believeing the gospel, who then is sovereign?

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Calvinism misrepresents what the scriptures say. It is not usurping God's sovereignty to believe, believeing is obeying God. It is those who do not obey the gospel that usurp God's sovereignty.

 

[jbh28]

I like this verse too, and it shows Total Inability false. And this verse is concerning salvation itself, what does the whole verse say?

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Verse 18 concerns salvation. We could not reason with God if we are unable. And in verses 19 and 20 he shows that salvation is a matter of willingness and obedience. We do not steal salvation from God, we must come to him with a willing mind in submission, we must be obedient.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

If you obey God by believeing the gospel, who then is sovereign?

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Calvinism misrepresents what the scriptures say. It is not usurping God's sovereignty to believe, believeing is obeying God. It is those who do not obey the gospel that usurp God's sovereignty.

guess page 7 isn't too bad to get off topic.....

Did you see my question to you by chance?

 

[preacher4truth]

I guess you are just trying to pick a fight. Start your own thread if you want to talk about it. don't whine because I won't go on a rabbit trail.
What's not "knowable"?

ordaining doesn't equal causing, and not relevant.

He pulls out strawmen all the while refusing to answer Scriptural proof, to avoid being wrong. I mean, how could Gerald ever be wrong?

 

[preacher4truth]

One of my favorite statements God made is "let us reason together". He didn't say "reason with me", He said "us...together".

How does omniscience reason, and for what purpose?
what does it mean to "reason" with another?

This is why I appeal to mystery...it is the only thing finite man CAN appeal to given what God has allowed us to know.

You still don't know what your proof-text means.

 

[Winman]

guess page 7 isn't too bad to get off topic.....

Did you see my question to you by chance?

No, I must have missed that, what was your question?

 

[preacher4truth]

If you really believed what scripture said, you would know God limits himself at times.

I not only believe what they say, I know what they mean.

Hence; It's not knowing what Scriptures say it's knowing what they mean.

This is why you continue in error, and don't hold that God is Omniscient, completely Sovereign, and that you hold to election being conditional, when it is unconditional.

Simply? You know some verses and what they say.

- Peace

 

[jbh28]

No, I must have missed that, what was your question?

no problem...


When you say "limit his knowledge at times" are you speaking of God not knowing something, or God not using his knowledge.

 

[Winman]

When you say "limit his knowledge at times" are you speaking of God not knowing something, or God not using his knowledge.

I cannot really say. When God wrestled Jacob, it is difficult to imagine he could not have prevailed if he wanted to. Even so, God touched Jacob's thigh and put it out of joint and Jacob still would not let go.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

I do not understand this, I only know what the scriptures say, Jacob wrestled with God and Jacob prevailed. So God obviously limited his power at this particular time.

Of course, God could take back his power at any times he chooses.

But at that time God limited his power, he was no stronger than an ordinary man.

 

[Rippon]

That means to me He did not know just how far into sin man would go.

Still remaining in the heterodox world I see. Does your pastor know you have these beliefs?

 

[jbh28]

I cannot really say. When God wrestled Jacob, it is difficult to imagine he could not have prevailed if he wanted to. Even so, God touched Jacob's thigh and put it out of joint and Jacob still would not let go.

God could have but didn't use the power.

Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

I do not understand this, I only know what the scriptures say, Jacob wrestled with God and Jacob prevailed. So God obviously limited his power at this particular time.

Well, just like Jesus in the NT, he limited himself.[

Of course, God could take back his power at any times he chooses.

But at that time God limited his power, he was no stronger than an ordinary man.

I look at it more of a father and his son wrestling. The Father lets the son win.

 

[preacher4truth]

I said this:

The thing I believe is that God must be all He says He is in Scripture, and that your view that He doesn't know all things must be error and a total misunderstanding on your part, with other erroneous views you hold that He must be.

and you replied:

Agreed and scriptre says God can be grieved, angered, and he can regret he created mankind. That means to me He did not know just how far into sin man would go.

Which shows you're not paying attention.

Your misunderstanding of God here, Scripture and its meaning is glaring.

"That means to me?" Guess what, it doesn't matter what Scripture means "to you." You're not the "end all."

God knows everything, from the beginning to everlasting. You do err in claiming God to not be all-knowing. This shows a serious lack of understanding the theology of His attributes.

I mean, what kind of God is this that doesn't know all things, which is contrary to the biblical representation of Him in all His Glory? These are the beliefs of folks in Baptist Churches? Seriously? UNBELIEVABLE.

 

[freeatlast]

I guess you are just trying to pick a fight. Start your own thread if you want to talk about it. don't whine because I won't go on a rabbit trail.
What's not "knowable"?

ordaining doesn't equal causing, and not relevant.

A straw man's argument. :laugh:

 

[Winman]

God could have but didn't use the power.

Well, just like Jesus in the NT, he limited himself.[
I look at it more of a father and his son wrestling. The Father lets the son win.

I don't know if he let Jacob win. God may have limited himself in order that he be able to interact personally with Jacob. Note that like Moses, Jacob was amazed that he saw God face to face and lived. If God had appeared in his glory to Jacob, Jacob would have fallen dead on the spot.

So, PERHAPS in this limited state, Jacob truly was physically stronger than God and prevailed.

Note also that God asked Jacob's name. If his power was limited at this moment, isn't it also possible that his knowledge was limited and this was a sincere question?

Trust me, I don't understand all this. At the same time, I don't dismiss it as many do. God told us this story for a reason. God does not seem afraid to show himself as limited at times.

And this would answer many controversial scriptures, as when God told Abraham that "for now I know that thou fearest God"

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Or...

Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Note the word NOW in both those verses.

Folks want to dismiss these verses as not being literal. But perhaps at these particular times God limited his knowledge and these statements are completely sincere and literal.

You can't explain away that Jacob prevailed over God in this wrestling match. It shows without doubt that God limited himself at this time.

 

[jbh28]

I don't know if he let Jacob win.

There is no "if." God is all powerful right? Yes... So he limited himself to let Jacob win. The alternative is that Jacob was more powerful than God.

God may have limited himself in order that he be able to interact personally with Jacob.

could be

Note that like Moses, Jacob was amazed that he saw God face to face and lived. If God had appeared in his glory to Jacob, Jacob would have fallen dead on the spot.

there were others that saw God face to face. Read the books of Matthew, Mark Luke and John..

Folks want to dismiss these verses as not being literal. But perhaps at these particular times God limited his knowledge and these statements are completely sincere and literal.

You can't explain away that Jacob prevailed over God in this wrestling match. It shows without doubt that God limited himself at this time.

Any limiting is God not using. but that doesn't change that God is omnipotent(all powerful, stronger than anyone) and omniscient(all knowing).

 

[Winman]

There is no "if." God is all powerful right? Yes... So he limited himself to let Jacob win. The alternative is that Jacob was more powerful than God.

When God wants to be all powerful, he is. When he wants to limit himself, he can. Jesus is God, but he was limited, he got tired and slept, he had to eat, I imagine he got cold and hot...

But at times we see Jesus's power, he rebuked the storm, he walked on water, he could perform miracles. He did all this through the Holy Spirit. He did no miracles until the Spirit came down upon him.

could bethere were others that saw God face to face. Read the books of Matthew, Mark Luke and John..

I know about the transfiguration. What is your point?

Any limiting is God not using. but that doesn't change that God is omnipotent(all powerful, stronger than anyone) and omniscient(all knowing).

I agree. But it seems one of God's abilities is to limit himself whenever he sees fit.

 

[preacher4truth]

There is no "if." God is all powerful right? Yes... So he limited himself to let Jacob win. The alternative is that Jacob was more powerful than God.
could bethere were others that saw God face to face. Read the books of Matthew, Mark Luke and John..

Any limiting is God not using. but that doesn't change that God is omnipotent(all powerful, stronger than anyone) and omniscient(all knowing).

Moses SAW Gods face, face to face?

Really? Where?

He spake with God, "face to face" but this doesn't mean he SAW Him. Exodus 33:11 and verse 20 respectively.

More misunderstanding of terms just as when others use passages to "prove" God is not "all-knowing."

Also:

"No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us." 1 John 4:12


- Peace

 

[jbh28]

When God wants to be all powerful, he is. When he wants to limit himself, he can. Jesus is God, but he was limited, he got tired and slept, he had to eat, I imagine he got cold and hot...

But at times we see Jesus's power, he rebuked the storm, he walked on water, he could perform miracles. He did all this through the Holy Spirit. He did no miracles until the Spirit came down upon him.

I know about the transfiguration. What is your point?




I agree. But it seems one of God's abilities is to limit himself whenever he sees fit.

Limit = not used

 

[jbh28]

Moses SAW Gods face, face to face?

Really? Where?

He spake with God, "face to face" but this doesn't mean he SAW Him. Exodus 33:11 and verse 20 respectively.

More misunderstanding of terms just as when others use passages to "prove" God is not "all-knowing."

- Peace

No, Moses didn't see God face to face.