Featured God's love question

Yes, indeedy. The elect are the objects of God's mercy and the non-elect are the objects of His wrath (Ro.9:22,23).

 

Don't know whether to shout "Hallelujah" or "Yipee?"

 

I have answered the question: God manifested and manifests His love for the world as a whole through taking upon Himself the form of man and dying to present the opportunity for salvation to every man, which He is currently doing through the Ministry of the Comforter.

Not one person will stand before God and say "But...you didn't tell me!"

God manifests this same love through the internal witness given to every man and woman, as well as through the testimony of Creation.

Because He is actually...not willing that any should perish, even as we are told in His Word.

That is not what is in view. Nobody is saying everyone gets saved, we are looking at God's love and whether it is bestowed only on the Elect, or if it is bestowed upon all men.

Now try to look at men before they are saved. All men are born separated from God, lost, and natural. To think that God loved those who are of the Elect because He saw in advance that they would choose to respond to the Gospel, or the contemporary will of God in their day before the Gospel of Christ was revealed to men, then you have just taught that men are saved by a work they effect, namely...believing.

You have effectively nullified Ephesians 2:8-10.

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works, and that not of ourselves.

They are not saved before they are saved. They stand on equal ground with all men until their understanding is enlightened by God and they yield in obedience to the Gospel.

Are you going to say that only the Elect are brought under conviction?


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Scripture does not suggest otherwise, lol.

Does this nullify the fact that Christ was the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world? It's a very simple verse. Does this nullify Paul's teaching that even the Gentiles kept the Law of God because of the internal witness God has placed in every man?


Romans 1:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)




There is only one reason why we love God...because He first loved us.

God initiates salvation, not man.

Sorry, I do not see Elect in this verse...


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


If one wants to rewrite Scripture and remove the love of God for the world, have at it.

Completely irrelevant.

Could you please quote whatever it is that you derived this conclusion from, lol.

Relevance?

We are not discussing the Security of the Believer.

Again...there is no debate.


Romans 10:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Then fill in the blank:

For God so ________ the ___________ that He sent His only begotten Son...

That is a conclusion one can only draw when their soteriology excludes important portions of Scripture. No man is saved until he is regenerated, and no man or woman is born into this world regenerated.

The Atonement is a freely offered gift, which is readily available to every man or woman who is obedient to the will of God, which is that they come under obedience, which has as it's goal their salvation.


Colossians 1:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;

6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:


God does not restrain His love from anyone, though He will, I believe, withdraw the opportunity of salvation when they reject the truth given them. This is true in Old Testament Economies, and even more true now that the Gospel of Christ is the revelation God is providing men through the Ministry of the Comforter.

That men can be brought to an understanding of the Gospel through this ministry and reject it without being regenerated seems all to clear in this passage...


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


...where we see the ministry of the Holy Spirit "done despite unto," and that ministry is to glorify Christ, who is also despised.

This is not a Calvinist issue, this is not an Arminian issue...

...it is a Basic Biblical Principle.


God bless.

 

So will you comment on what he has said?

Are his assertions correct and founded upon a Biblical Basis?


God bless.

 

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

Darrell C

Hello DC

Thanks for responding in detail. We can make some progress here because of that. We differ on several things, agree on a few. Let's look at why we differ.

Yes ,thankfully he did...Phil2;1-7

,

This is not true in any way. Think this out DC. When Jesus came to earth, millions had already lived and died in their sins, never hearing about Jesus.

many live and die in their sins today without hearing anything about Him.

Also scripture speaks of the death and ACCOMPLISHED salvation as a Covenant death........not a potential opportunity.
While we offer the gospel to all men believing that all we offer it to are given an opportunity to believe.....the fact is only those ordained of God to believe will believe. That is a true and revealed truth, but as far as we are concerned , we offer the truth of the gospel to all men.

I agree with you that all men have the light of conscience and the light of nature, which is a revelation to them that there is a God. This revelation does not inform them of the saving love of God as all men are truth suppressors.

DC.....we are not told this anywhere in the His word. It is not there. God is very willing that many perish,mt7...in fact multitudes will be told depart from Me, I never at anytime knew you.

The half of a verse you are offering 2pet3:9 has another half....God is longsuffering to USWARD..... not willing that any perish.

Every single person peter is speaking of is going to be saved, God being longsuffering , bearing with the sin and wickedness of the scoffers, until each and everyone he has designed to save, will be born and be saved. That is the actual context of the passage....I know you and others get very excited with the 6 words....not willing that any should perish....but you need to read the whole chapter...look at how Peter sums it up;

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

If we both say that not all men are going to be saved....Then we are focused on the saving love of God...that is what is being discussed.
I offered you verses that show it, but it seems as if the truth in those verses eluded you. I think if we go over those verses again...we can see it with a careful reading:wavey:

.

yes....

No biblical Calvinist would ever believe such a blasphemous idea.

The biblical God is omniscient. He does nothing because of what man does or does not do, as He never increases or decreases in knowledge. He knows all and does not need to learn anything.

God loved the elect even when they were dead in sin....He set His love upon them when they were unlovely. He makes us to be accepted in the Beloved.

.

:thumbs:

Yes...only the elect are savingly convicted and granted repentance unto life, the sorrow of the world leads to death...
2cor7
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death

Sure it does.....when God spoke to national Israel...do you think He was unaware of the other nations? Or does this suggest a different relationship that God had with the one nation?

agreed for the most part...

.

DC....you have completely missed what I was offering to you here.....let me clarify , then when you re-read it maybe you will" SEE" what you missed the first time.

we are discussing the saving love of God.....I state that it is a Covenant love given only to the elect...you suggest it is given to all men everywhere.

here is Romans 5;
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God

is shed abroad in our hearts
by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

The Holy Ghost.....is only given to the Elect.....that is those who are saved, justified.....take a marker and mark or circle the word us in romans 5...it is only speaking of the JUSTIFIED;

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

The word elect does not appear in every verse of the bible....but every saved person is elect...

Now ...how does the LOVE OF GOD that justifies dead sinners get into a sinner?
the text says.....By the HOLY GHOST who is given unto US......
The unsaved DO NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVEN UNTO THEM TO SHED THE SAVING LOVE OF GOD IN THEIR HEART.
DC...do you see it now? Do you see the relevance now? everywhere the saving love of God is mentioned...it is spoken of as IN Christ...in saving Union with Christ Jesus....now re-read romans 8...with the same truth in mind and you will "SEE" it and it's relevance.......


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

Hi Sister Judith,

The claim God loved all men to the extent that Christ died for all men is inconsistent with what the scriptures teach about the love of God. This inconsistency occurs at several points:

1) The scriptures teach God's corrective chastisement is upon all He loves. But the scriptures also teach not all are under this chastisement (Ps 93:12-13, 1Cor 11:32, Heb 12:6-8, Rev 3:19).
2) The scriptures teach God's love is effectual in the sense it produces change in those receiving it; however, in no case is the effect universally observed; therefore, the cause cannot be universally applied (1Jn 4:19, Tit 3:3-5, Eph 2:4-5). For example we read, "19 We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19). The love of God toward us is the cause, and the effect is us loving God, however we know that not every human being loves God, therefore it is proof that God does not love every human being.

Scriptures which refer to God loving the world or to Christ being given to the world (Jn 3:16, 1Jn 2:2) do not encompass all people without exception. Instead, such scriptures are intended to teach that God's love extends beyond the bounds of the Jewish people unto every nation, kindred, people and tongue (Rev 7:9). The term world is used repeatedly in the scriptures in a limited sense; however, this fact seldom receives proper recognition. In the Gospel of John alone there are such usages in: Jn 12:19, Jn 14:19, Jn 15:18, Jn 16:20, Jn 17:9, Jn 17:14, Jn 18:20. For example, in John 17:9 Jesus states, " 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.". The word "world" here obviously only means the nonelect of the world, not every human being, thus I can see how the word "world" in John 3:16 may also mean only the elect of the world or as previously stated intended to teach that God's love extends beyond the bounds of the Jewish people unto every nation, kindred, people and tongue (Rev 7:9).

 

Outstanding observation Judith!

We have one group of believers who understand Ephesians 1:4 as teaching God chose foreseen individuals for salvation before creation. Using this interpretation, they conclude God did not really love those not chosen individually, because God's curse of the Fall made them unable to seek God or trust in Christ.

Now on the other side of the road, we have a diverse group of folks, that interpret Ephesians 1:4 as a corporate election, when God individually chose Christ to be His Redeemer before creation, God effectively chose corporately all those His Redeemer would redeem.

But which interpretation is correct. Look at 2 Thessalonians 2:13, where God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth. For us to have faith, we must be alive, i.e. after creation, and we must have responded to the gospel in a way that God could credit our faith as righteousness. So given that our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, then Ephesians 1:4 must refer to our corporate election.

Still not convinced? Look at James 2:5 where God chose those "rich in faith." If your version says "to be" rich in faith, that is a translators addition which is not in the text. See the KJV, or note that "to be" is in italics, meaning added, in word for word translations like the LEB or NASB.

There are numerous other verses that mention God choosing individuals for salvation during their lifetime, such as 1 Corinthians 1:26-30. Thus the only viable view of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate, unless one thinks rewriting a half dozen other verses is a better choice.

So lets return to John 3:16 where God loved all mankind in this way, He gave His one of a kind son, so that anyone who believes into Him shall not perish but have eternal life. So the love is reflected in providing an opportunity for salvation to all mankind, whoever believes. And therefore, for this love to mean anything, the ability to hear and respond to the gospel must be generally within the ability of all men. Note that the first soil of Matthew 13 has lost that ability.

God bless.

 

THE US IN ROMANS 5 IS ONLY THE ELECT.

Look at the whole chapter...starting at 5:1 the us are those justified by faith. Circle the word us everytime it is used..in chapter 5...it is only the justified believer in view.....the elect of God.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

For [while] we were still helpless, yet at the proper time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For only rarely will someone die on behalf of a righteous person (for on behalf of a good person possibly someone might even dare to die),
8 but God demonstrates his own love for us, [in] that [while] we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (LEB - Romans 5:5-8)

So, for those who read, Christ died for the ungodly, which includes us. Therefore, using reverse engineering, when God demonstrated His love for us, He demonstrated His love for all the ungodly.

Just read you bible folks....

 

One thing we differ on is proper quoting.

And I would change this to "Let's look at where Iconoclast differs from Scripture's clear presentation of the love of God."

Then you go on to try to disprove this.

Amazing.

And we see how those of faith, who had benefitted from the manifestation of God's love to them regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile, which point stands as unanswered, and even agreed by you, yet you kick at this goad because the Word of God conflicts with your Theology System.

Shame, shame, shame on you, my friend.

Here is the redemption of Old Testament Saints which occurred after Christ died for them...not before. Until the Atonement guess what these folks relied on?

God's love which was bestowed upon the same world He loved enough to die for:


Hebrews 9:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

That doesn't change the Biblical Principle that God has provided opportunity to every man to be in obedience to the revelation they have been provided with.

And you completely ignore this point.

It was a potential opportunity for you...before you were saved.

Or do you think your were regenerate before you were saved?

You can't hide the truth behind a fallible view of Election.

That is like saying "Only the ones who jump in the pool will get wet," lol.

That's a given.

That does not negate the fact that God bestows His love to all men.

Again, we see who Christ came to die for:


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


And we see the sufficiency of the Cross:


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


We don't see "Elect" in either verse, so you will have to establish how you are correct and both Johns are wrong, as well as the Holy Spirit, seeing God had them make these declarations.

Your doctrine is arrived at by secluding verses and excluding others.

The irony is that you think you do service to the Sovereignty of God, when in fact you demean God and make Him a respecter of persons.

That only the saved will be saved?

Gosh, that's deep.

No, actually you do not, because you are ignoring this very basic Bible Truth in an attempt to defend your Theology System.

That Testimony is given to every man and woman who enters this world, and that is the manifestation of the love of God to all men, not just the Elect.

You really need to stop trying to stand on both sides of the fence.

That is not even relevant, even if it were true, which it is not.

In view, again, is how God manifests love to all men.

The OP builds a false premise due to poor understanding, and you compliment that poor understanding.

Because God is not willing that any should perish...He makes Himself known to all men.

And that is precisely what men who have not heard the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be judged on.

Not works, but their obedience to the revelation they have provided to them already.

Do you really think that Abraham trusted in the Sacrifice of Christ? Is that why He was declared just? If you do, that will be one more thing you impose into Scripture.

Continued...

 

It is:


2 Peter 3:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


You're commentary does not negate nor nullify a very simple statement.

It is because He is not willing that any should perish is the reason for His longsuffering.

Do you think the context introduces the "thief in the night" analogy in regards to...

...the Elect?

No, it is the Lost in view.

Very sloppy. Please post the Scripture you feel is relevant.

Again, your method of exclusion does not negate the simple truth in...


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

How does that nullify the perfection of God's love, or show that He didn't love those who rejected Him?

Oh, I see, if it's only half a verse we can toss what it says out.

Now let's see the opportunity Peter points out:




2 Peter 2:21

King James Version (KJV)

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


2 Peter 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:



And Paul:


Romans 1:20-24

King James Version (KJV)

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


And Christ:


John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


And not only was that pointed out in the first response, you have presented nothing that shows God hates those who will not be saved.

The only hatred that will be seen in God for men is the hatred for the sin of rejection of His Word.

But it is clear that God has made provision which is sufficient for all men, and that this was due to His love for man.


And have to get going but will get back to this when I return. You have my full attention.


God bless.

 

Attention please. You did not cite Romans 5:5 :
And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Now that is very specific. God's love has not been poured out into the hearts of everyone --only the elect have been the recepients of the Holy Spirit which has been given to us alone.

In verse 9 Paul discusses the fact that we have been justified by his blood and not only that but that we will be saved from God's wrath through him!

And the following verse just emphazise the theme. His love is special, specific and only certain ones are the beneficiaries of His love.

 

That is not relevant to the OP.

Of course the love of God has been poured out into our hearts when we are saved, the question is does God extend His love only to those who are saved?

The problem with that is this: you also have to say God did not love us before He saved us, if you are saying His love is only manifested towards men after they are saved.


Was this man...


Mark 10:21

King James Version (KJV)

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.


...Elect?


God bless.

 

And just wanted to throw out another passage where God's love for man is seen, and would like to know if we could impose a context of the Elect only:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


This verse alone should put the issue to rest.


God bless.

 

Darrell C

really....

Okay...you can say what you want. I just wanted to give you a chance to correct your denial of truth and yet you proceed instead...no problem friend, I can adjust rapidly:wavey:

Or...you do not grasp what is being discussed and fail to realize that millions of Christians let scripture reveal to them the truth and theological system contained in it.

There is no shame in believing God and His word. perhaps someday you will see that. As that day has not come yet for you, you deny obvious portions of scripture and attack all who do not agree with your false views....we have seen this before DC.:wavey:

They relied on the faithfulness of God to his Covenant promise made to all who believe. Your responses avoid this totally as you are to bust being smug to think it out evidently.

Since you enjoy Hebrews...heb 2:
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

opps..guess you missed it...or did not see it again....
Hebrews 9:14-15it does not say he took upon himself the seed of Adam..{world}..it says SEED of Abraham....that would be the ELECT..oh..the word is not there:laugh: the theology is there however.

Every biblical verse dealing with the saved is dealing with the Elect given from the Father to the Son...you can whine and quote Jn 3:16 all day does not change it...Jn 3 16 is speaking of EVERYONE BELIEVING AND CONTINUING TO BELIEVE..... that would only be the ELECT...sorry of that word bothers you and all other man centered persons out there.

Have not ignored that at all...All men are responsible to repent and believe God.....they will not ...they are all truth suppressors despite your ungodly denial of this biblical fact stated in romans1.

There is no potential anything. There is what God has ordained and what he has passed by ....