God's love question

[Judith]

Hi Sister Judith,

The claim God loved all men to the extent that Christ died for all men is inconsistent with what the scriptures teach about the love of God. This inconsistency occurs at several points:

1) The scriptures teach God's corrective chastisement is upon all He loves. But the scriptures also teach not all are under this chastisement (Ps 93:12-13, 1Cor 11:32, Heb 12:6-8, Rev 3:19).
2) The scriptures teach God's love is effectual in the sense it produces change in those receiving it; however, in no case is the effect universally observed; therefore, the cause cannot be universally applied (1Jn 4:19, Tit 3:3-5, Eph 2:4-5). For example we read, "19 We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19). The love of God toward us is the cause, and the effect is us loving God, however we know that not every human being loves God, therefore it is proof that God does not love every human being.

Scriptures which refer to God loving the world or to Christ being given to the world (Jn 3:16, 1Jn 2:2) do not encompass all people without exception. Instead, such scriptures are intended to teach that God's love extends beyond the bounds of the Jewish people unto every nation, kindred, people and tongue (Rev 7:9). The term world is used repeatedly in the scriptures in a limited sense; however, this fact seldom receives proper recognition. In the Gospel of John alone there are such usages in: Jn 12:19, Jn 14:19, Jn 15:18, Jn 16:20, Jn 17:9, Jn 17:14, Jn 18:20. For example, in John 17:9 Jesus states, " 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.". The word "world" here obviously only means the nonelect of the world, not every human being, thus I can see how the word "world" in John 3:16 may also mean only the elect of the world or as previously stated intended to teach that God's love extends beyond the bounds of the Jewish people unto every nation, kindred, people and tongue (Rev 7:9).

Thank you for answering the question. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[John Toppass]

We know what the bible says in John 3:16, so does that mean that He loves every single person? If so, and only those who get saved are those who are predestined/chosen, how is this love manifest for the not predestined/chosen?

Judith, the answer IMNSHO is that the question is based on the false assumption that only those who are predestined/chosen get saved. All are invited to freely choose salvation. This is part of GOD's ongoing creation. HE made us in HIS image because HE was looking for that intimate relationship with HIS creation that would freely return the love that HE supplied. Since HE is the Creator of all things and even though HE desires that all men be saved, in HIS total sovereignty, HE allowed this creation of mankind to have free choice in this matter.
The only reason GOD has allowed Satan's existence, is so that HIS loved creation could make a choice between good and evil and it is HIS desire that all would be saved, but HIS total sovereignty to allow HIS creation to choose. Those of us who are saved will no longer have a choice in Heaven because there will only be good to choose from.
HIS word says that HE loves all men (mankind), so I believe that HE does. It is our by our choice, given by a Sovereign GOD, we return that love by accepting HIS only begotten SON as our Savior and being saved.

 

[Darrell C]

Because He is actually...not willing that any should perish, even as we are told in His Word.

DC.....we are not told this anywhere in the His word. It is not there. God is very willing that many perish,mt7...in fact multitudes will be told depart from Me, I never at anytime knew you.

We are told this right here:


2 Peter 3:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.



Your theology of exclusivity refuses to acknowledge that it simply a matter that God is not willing that...any...should perish.

His longsuffering restrains the Day of the Lord for to give opportunity to all.

You deny the Lord's Sovereignty and do not even realize it. Think about it...is there any question that the Elect will be saved? Of course not. So the longsuffering is not for the purpose of making sure the Elect get the chance to be saved, they are saved from Eternity past. It is for the purpose that all be given opportunity, because He is not will that any should perish.

Your doctrine teaches the opposite of the Biblical Teaching: God is willing that some perish; God does not want all to come to repentance.

Lastly, here, you ignore the eschatological tenor, in which it is simple math to understand that the Day of the Lord does not speak of the Elect, but upon those that will come under sudden judgment to their destruction.

The half of a verse you are offering 2pet3:9 has another half....God is longsuffering to USWARD..... not willing that any perish.

You are Exclusionary.

The Gospel is not.

Who was restrained from hearing John's gospel?


John 1:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.


Consider:


Acts 15:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.


The opportunity is given to all men, and that is through the Ministry of the Comforter.

You cannot deny the world here:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Every single person peter is speaking of is going to be saved, God being longsuffering , bearing with the sin and wickedness of the scoffers, until each and everyone he has designed to save, will be born and be saved. That is the actual context of the passage....I know you and others get very excited with the 6 words....not willing that any should perish....but you need to read the whole chapter...

Again, this is just a given: the saved will be saved. The elect will be saved.

You work in "not willing that any should perish" but...you don't really believe that. You have God willing that many will perish and is only longsuffering towards the Elect.

That is a caricature of God's love. For God so loved the world...

look at how Peter sums it up;

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

There is a focus on false teachers and those who have rejected the knowledge of the truth. That does not nullify the many passages we have that show without question that God loves the world enough to die for it. You will not change the fact that Christ is the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world.

That whosoever believes might have eternal life.

Consider:


Romans 5:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


All men means all men.

You won't change the fact that the Gift of God is given unto all men, though only those who believe will be saved.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Quote:
That is not what is in view. Nobody is saying everyone gets saved, we are looking at God's love and whether it is bestowed only on the Elect, or if it is bestowed upon all men.

If we both say that not all men are going to be saved....Then we are focused on the saving love of God...that is what is being discussed.

You do not understand God's saving love. You create a caricature of that saving love, ignoring that it is because God loves all men that He took upon Himself the form of man and died, making the Gift of salvation available to all.

You are blurring the lines because you are exclusionary in your doctrine. You have not the saving love of God, or His heart in regards to the lost...in mind.

You have a country club mentality.

I offered you verses that show it, but it seems as if the truth in those verses eluded you.

Unlike you, I have addressed every word and Scripture you have presented and countered with passages showing the error of country club mentality.

It must be embarrassing to have to skip so much in my posts.

I think if we go over those verses again...we can see it with a careful reading

I doubt it. Really.

Quote:
Now try to look at men before they are saved. All men are born separated from God, lost, and natural

.

yes....

Which shows God's love towards unrepentant sinful man.

Now try to calculate that into your doctrine.

If God can show that love to the Elect while they are yet sinners, dead in tresp[asses and sins, having not the first element of worthiness...

...why would that love be withheld from all men?

Your agreement dismantles your dogma.

Quote:
To think that God loved those who are of the Elect because He saw in advance that they would choose to respond to the Gospel,

No biblical Calvinist would ever believe such a blasphemous idea.

Are you sure about that?

The biblical God is omniscient. He does nothing because of what man does or does not do, as He never increases or decreases in knowledge. He knows all and does not need to learn anything.

So we agree that God saves according to grace and mercy.

Now if we could just agree on who God's grace and mercy is extended to:


Ephesians 3:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


The Gospel goes unto all the world, not just the Elect. It goes through the Elect, but not just to them.

God loved the elect even when they were dead in sin....He set His love upon them when they were unlovely. He makes us to be accepted in the Beloved.

Relevance?

Again, we are speaking about God's love bestowed on...who?

You say only the Elect. And then try to proof-text that by ignoring texts which make it abundantly clear.

Quote:
They are not saved before they are saved. They stand on equal ground with all men until their understanding is enlightened by God and they yield in obedience to the Gospel

.
:thumbsup:

Great, Thumbs up.

Now understand God's love going out to the lost, of which the Elect are part of before they are saved.

Quote:
Are you going to say that only the Elect are brought under conviction?

Yes...

Then you negate the teaching of Christ:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


The Comforter reproves the world.

Think you that the Holy Spirit is powerless over the non-elect? They too will come under conviction and those who reject that ministry will fall under the judgment of God.

only the elect are savingly convicted and granted repentance unto life,

Again you bypass the actual topic with your qualifier, "savingly."

Of course only the elect are saved, lol. But let's get back to the subject. I pointed out you're straying from the topic in the first response, apparently you have not understood where you stray.

That only the Elect are or will be saved is a given, that does not negate the tremendous testimony of God's love for the world.


1 Timothy 2:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


All means all, men means men.

You will not negate nor nullify the love of God for all men.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

the sorrow of the world leads to death...
2cor7
10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death

Relevance to the OP?

Well now...scripture suggests otherwise;
2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Scripture does not suggest otherwise, lol.

Sure it does.....when God spoke to national Israel...do you think He was unaware of the other nations? Or does this suggest a different relationship that God had with the one nation?

You need to understand that Israel is the created Nation of relationship to God, an Old Testament picture of the Church, the Body of Christ, which also prefigures the One People of God of the Eternal State.

It is a Biblical knowing which represents intimate relationship as opposed to general knowledge, and your perverse wresting of this verse ignores the fact that among other nations the very love of God was manifest through the revelation provided to them by which they, unlike Israel, kept the Law which was written on their hearts.

Does this nullify the fact that Christ was the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world? It's a very simple verse. Does this nullify Paul's teaching that even the Gentiles kept the Law of God because of the internal witness God has placed in every man?


Romans 1:18-21


Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


There is only one reason why we love God...because He first loved us.

God initiates salvation, not man.

agreed for the most part...

You don't agree at all.

Let's put what you took away from my post back in there:


Romans 1:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


It has always been the love of God for the World that motivated God to reveal Himself to God.

Go and learn what that means. Drop your Theology System and embrace the Word of God.

Sorry, I do not see Elect in this verse...
Completely irrelevant.
Could you please quote whatever it is that you derived this conclusion from, lol.
Relevance?
We are not discussing the Security of the Believer

.

DC....you have completely missed what I was offering to you here.....let me clarify , then when you re-read it maybe you will" SEE" what you missed the first time.

What I am missing is a response to what I said.

To address it again, this has nothing to do with Eternal Security, because that too is a given.

What is in view is before men are saved.

we are discussing the saving love of God.....

I would agree, but more specifically the saving love of God as given unto the world.

You deny many clear and simple statements in Scripture which produces a caricature of God. A respecter of persons.

You are creating a god in your own image.

I state that it is a Covenant love given only to the elect...you suggest it is given to all men everywhere.

I suggested no such thing.

I have not, as you have, blurred the topic and mingled before and after passages to prove a point.

I have stayed on point and addressed your inability to actually understand context so that you can stay on topic.

here is Romans 5;
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God

is shed abroad in our hearts
by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Again...your context is post-salvific.

Off topic.

The Holy Ghost.....is only given to the Elect....that is those who are saved, justified.....

No-one is arguing that.

take a marker and mark or circle the word us in romans 5...it is only speaking of the JUSTIFIED;

Read the OP again. Then perhaps you might start using your own marker in relevant passages.

Or did you black out the relevant passages with your marker?

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

The word elect does not appear in every verse of the bible....but every saved person is elect...

And everyone that jumps into the ocean is wet.

Relevance to the OP?

Now ...how does the LOVE OF GOD that justifies dead sinners get into a sinner?

Not relevant.

The question is who does the love of God extend to.

Scripture says the world and all men. Your Theology System says only the Elect.

We see who's understanding you prefer.

the text says.....By the HOLY GHOST who is given unto US......

Which is irrelevant to the OP:


1 Timothy 2:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


If you read this and weep you might consider leaving the country club.

The unsaved DO NOT HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVEN UNTO THEM TO SHED THE SAVING LOVE OF GOD IN THEIR HEART.

Do you really think that emphasizing the text will make what you say true? lol

Understand: the Elect, prior to regeneration...do not have the Holy Spirit...

...either.

Simple math, amigo.

DC...do you see it now?

No, not really, I am a little too far south to see D.C.



See my commentary and see if you can deny that I am seeing things clearly. If you can address what has been said without slicing and dicing my statements and can show how the passages which show God's love for the world are not in fact clear statements of God's love we will take it from there.

Do you see the relevance now? everywhere the saving love of God is mentioned...

No kidding.

Shame you exclude the world. The Word does not.

it is spoken of as IN Christ...

Again, post-salvific.

in saving Union with Christ Jesus....now re-read romans 8...with the same truth in mind and you will "SEE" it and it's relevance.......


28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Again, post-salvific. Even as Peter's Epistle has a focus on genuine versus disingenuous, this is absolutely irrelevant to the question of the OP.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C


Quote:
One thing we differ on is proper quoting.

really....

Really.

Quote:
And I would change this to "Let's look at where Iconoclast differs from Scripture's clear presentation of the love of God."

Okay...you can say what you want.

On the contrary...I do not deceive myself as you have that I can "say what I want."

I have to conform my own views to the Word of God.

I just wanted to give you a chance to correct your denial of truth and yet you proceed instead...no problem friend, I can adjust rapidly

How magnanimous of you.

Now perhaps you will deal with relevant passages that make it clear that God's love is bestowed upon all men:


1 Timothy 4:9-11

King James Version (KJV)

9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.

10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

11 These things command and teach.


All means all, men means men, and specially means...well, take a look at the link, I don't want to confuse you.




Continued...

 

[Iconoclast]

DC

I will respond to your attack and errors later on in the day. there is so much error and foolish ideas expressed, I would have to see it as a part time job just to respond to so much of your posts....which when you get responses...it is clear that they go right past you and you are void of understanding....so then you attack the person who offers you correction.

That is okay. We have seen this tried before and it fails each time. Your failed attempt is already D.O.A.....as your posts are filled with all manner of error.

I have found that someone like you who thinks they have it correct when they do not...really does not want an answer as you have already shown....and yet...in working through your errors it will show others why you have strayed from truth and why and how they can avoid such error for themselves!

In an effort to resist truth, you oppose yourself which is not wise. By spreading out your error over several posts...you hope to hide the failed responses....but I will go back and take each one and expose it to the light and truth of scripture and remove your hiding place....This will take place later in the day....one error at a time ....so when you try and wiggle away....it will not happen...it will be more obvious than it already is...lol.

 

[Darrell C]

And we see how those of faith, who had benefitted from the manifestation of God's love to them regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile, which point stands as unanswered, and even agreed by you, yet you kick at this goad because the Word of God conflicts with your Theology System.

Or...you do not grasp what is being discussed and fail to realize that millions of Christians let scripture reveal to them the truth and theological system contained in it.

I grasp...

...all means all...

...men means men...

...and God so loved the world...

...as it is recorded in Scripture.

I also grasp the intent of the OP, the question of the OP, and the refusal of some to acknowledge a false premise to ratify false doctrine.

Shame, shame, shame on you, my friend.

There is no shame in believing God and His word.

I agree.

Which is why I tried to help you understand salvation Pre-Cross and Pre-Pentecost.

That is the singular error which both Calvinists and Arminians stumble over.

perhaps someday you will see that.

I already see it. But thanks for your concern, that is appreciated.

As that day has not come yet for you, you deny obvious portions of scripture and attack all who do not agree with your false views....we have seen this before DC.

Of course you have, because your Eschatology is as sloppy as your Soteriology and posting technique.

Why is it you refused to answer my question there. I let it slide, but have you forgotten that? If you ever did answer, perhaps you can show me where that answer can be found. It would be difficult, seeing there are some here who so disrupt threads, then run to another when the going gets tough. What, ten threads on the Rapture?

And you will see only responses, in detail, to those things which I see to be in error. Nothing more, nothing less.

Here is the redemption of Old Testament Saints which occurred after Christ died for them...not before. Until the Atonement guess what these folks relied on?

They relied on the faithfulness of God to his Covenant promise made to all who believe. Your responses avoid this totally as you are to bust being smug to think it out evidently.

Here is a little more smugness: we see God's love for the Children of Israel who the Writer of Hebrews makes clear were...

...unbelievers.

You are missing the fact that the Old Testament provision of manna, which Christ contrasts with the True Bread, Himself...

...was given to those who were unbelievers who perished in the Wilderness due to provocation.

Expand your knowledge base, m friend, and you will learn that the Love of God is directed to all men.

God's love which was bestowed upon the same world He loved enough to die for:

Since you enjoy Hebrews...heb 2:
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

And here we again see you are a novice in the Word of God.

You say...

opps..guess you missed it...or did not see it again....
Hebrews 9:14-15it does not say he took upon himself the seed of Adam..{world}..it says SEED of Abraham....that would be the ELECT..oh..the word is not there the theology is there however.

In fact this is precisely what the Writer is saying...that He took upon Himself the nature of men...not Angels, lol.

And again, expand your knowledge base and you will limit yourself to such erroneous statement and teaching:


John 8:38-40

King James Version (KJV)

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.


Now you're trying to put the corrupted understanding of the Elect into Hebrews without realizing that not all who are of Israel are Elect.

For your information the Seed is Christ.

Not only is the word Elect not in this passage...not even the word seed is in this passage, which shows that you are incapable of dealing with the Word in it's context. Chapter two is not chapter nine, amigo.

Quote:
King James Version (KJV)

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Every biblical verse dealing with the saved is dealing with the Elect given from the Father to the Son...

I would agree with that...but what does that have to do with what I said, the passage I quoted, and the OP?

you can whine

I can snicker, as well, when posts like this are found to be more comical than theological.



And I am trying to close these posts with relevant Scripture to the OP (as well as for the OP), so here is our closer on this one:


Titus 2:10-11

King James Version (KJV)

10 Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


All means all, men means men.

You will not deny, negate, nor nullify the love of God through your Theology System.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

and quote Jn 3:16 all day does not change it...Jn 3 16 is speaking of EVERYONE BELIEVING AND CONTINUING TO BELIEVE..... that would only be the ELECT...sorry of that word bothers you and all other man centered persons out there.

I am actually fond of the word Elect, lol.

I just like to keep it in it's context, rather than make it an exclusionary country club concept one might try to deny the Love of God with.

That doesn't change the Biblical Principle that God has provided opportunity to every man to be in obedience to the revelation they have been provided with.

And you completely ignore this point.

Have not ignored that at all...

So you say, but when you can explain the many passages I have presented and show how they cannot possibly mean what they say, then perhaps you might be doing something.

All men are responsible to repent and believe God.....

Now you're catching on.

And if God commands all men everywhere to repent, the only logical conclusion we can draw from a Just and Holy God is that He makes it possible for all men everywhere to repent.

He does that through the revelation He has always given to men. It is a consistent theme of Scripture and is in fact the reason why...

...we have Scripture to begin with.

they will not ...

Of course not, but as I said earlier, and say often, no man sill stand before God and say "I didn't know, you didn't tell me!"

they are all truth suppressors despite your ungodly denial of this biblical fact stated in romans1.

It's not even something that is relevant.

If you want to discuss the response of Christ rejecting recipients of the revelation of God...let me know.

In the meantime, try to comprehend then focus on the OP.

Quote:
It was a potential opportunity for you...before you were saved.

There is no potential anything. There is what God has ordained and what he has passed by ....

Who is the "us" here...


Hebrews 1:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


...?

Or do you think your were regenerate before you were saved?

What kind of foolish question is that?

It is actually an ancient teaching technique, to ask a question that demands a particular response, in this case, a negative response.

It's intention is to point out that the Gospel came to a lost person, natural, dead in trespasses and sins, alienated from God and without Christ in this world.

Understand?

A person is lost until they are saved.
Jesus came to seek and save that which is lost.

Not according to your country club version of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

According to you, He only came to save the saved.

You see, foreknowledge works both ways, that's why we call it omniscience.

Only those sheep given to Him of the Father are "lost". the goats are right where they are supposed to be.

Emotion will hamper your efforts.

Pride will hamper your efforts.

Rethink the situation, my friend. I don't like to have to have discussions of this nature but for some it is beneficial.

You can't hide the truth behind a fallible view of Election.

I do not hide anywhere friend.

You will.

I believe the biblical truth of Election as have all other sheep who came before me, and all sheep who follow after me.

Sorry, but I am sure there have been more sheep as confused as you than there have been sheep who understood the Love of God manifested to the world.

At the very least one thing we all understand is that God loved us first.

That is the only reason we love Him, because He initiated the opportunity for each and every one of us, revealing unto us that which allowed us to seek after Him.

We see this clearly here:


Luke 16:27-31

King James Version (KJV)

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


Now go back to Hebrews Chapter One and learn the Love of God which is shown unto all men.


Continued...

 

[Rippon]

DC, your posts are much too long-winded. And you have the tendency to repeat yourself too often.

There is value in making more concise posts.

 

[Darrell C]

By the grace of God all sheep believe this truth. If anyone does not believe this biblical teaching they are not yet God's child.

Not your place to say.

Most are born again quite ignorant.

The shame is when...they stay that way.

Quote:
That is like saying "Only the ones who jump in the pool will get wet," lol.

That's a given

.

The apostles spoke of God saving sinners in Christ. No where in the book of Acts in any sermon did anyone tell the unbeliever...God loves you, or Jesus died for you....no where.....

Acts 2:32-40

King James Version (KJV)

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.



It's there all right, but it might not be seen if one does not want to see it.

in fact it is no where found in any book of the bible...

Not sure you realize it is your emotiuon and pride which is forcing you to make foolish assertions, denying some very Basic Bible Truth:



Isaiah 53

King James Version (KJV)

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

it is spoken of as In Christ in the verses that you smugly ignore.

Is it smugness, or Scripture, that is deflating your Theology System?

Scripture, of course.

That does not negate the fact that God bestows His love to all men.

Except that you can provide no verse that says so...

I have provided many.

The few in the initial response should be clear enough, but we can look at as much as you want.

Even Jn 3;16 is for EVERYONE believing....not the unbelieving...read vs 17,18 and see that they are condemned already....

For not believing.

Just as the Children of Israel in the Wilderness, who also had the revealed will of God given unto them:


Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


God was angry with them for not believing. That is the same reason He will judge all unbelievers.

And it is the same love of God which gave unto them that revelation by which they could be in relationship with Him through.

Quote:
Again, we see who Christ came to die for:

Some of us see it...some do not

John 1:29

I guess it just becomes habit to cut Scripture out of the discussion. Let me put that back in for you"


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Quote:
We don't see "Elect" in either verse, so you will have to establish how you are correct and both Johns are wrong, as well as the Holy Spirit, seeing God had them make these declarations.

not the jew only...that's how

Great. So it is not "the world" as both John, as well as Christ refers to, just means Gentiles will be saved too.

That might be reasonable if it were not for John also saying...


John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


And you're almost in luck, for every does not mean every, and man does not mean man, but it does mean...

...all.

What do you do with that?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Quote:
Your doctrine is arrived at by secluding verses and excluding others

.
which I have shown is exactly what you do

Not sure how you can say that with a straight face, lol.

Quote:
The irony is that you think you do service to the Sovereignty of God, when in fact you demean God and make Him a respecter of persons.

wrong again...

If you say so.

as you seek to limit God himself and suggest He must do as you 'feel" He should do, based on your emotions.

I admit I do get emotional when I consider the love of God for the world. To this love I am in debt.

That only the saved will be saved?

Gosh, that's deep

.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
That is a true and revealed truth, but as far as we are concerned , we offer the truth of the gospel to all men.

That only the saved will be saved?

Gosh, that's deep

that God saves sinners is deep.....

Maybe you offer it, but there must be a nagging conflict as you wonder if you are wasting your time...

And yes, the Love of God is deep.


Zephaniah 3:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.


Jeremiah 31:2-4

King James Version (KJV)

2 Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.



Now, when you can say everyone of Israel is of the Elect, then perhaps you might deny the love of God for all men.

Has it ever occurred to you that it is because God hates iniquity that He bestows love upon a people not worthy of anything but destruction?

you cannot think about what the verses are saying well enough so you mock what you do not grasp.

No mocking involved, just a clear assessment of the issue.

No, actually you do not, because you are ignoring this very basic Bible Truth in an attempt to defend your Theology System.

That Testimony is given to every man and woman who enters this world, and that is the manifestation of the love of God to all men, not just the Elect.[/Q
You really need to stop trying to stand on both sides of the fence.

I just believe what is written which you seem to dislike intensely.

If I intensely dislike it, lol, would I spend so much time presenting so much of it?

This revelation does not inform them of the saving love of God as all men are truth suppressors

That is not even relevant, even if it were true, which it is not.

It is certainly true...you are suppressing truth right now ....

You are forgetting that the Elect are used to convey the truth.

And you are forgetting that even among the wicked we see God express His Word, the truth...


John 11:50-52

King James Version (KJV)

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


Men do not frustrate the righteousness of God.

His Word goes out regardless of the intentions of man.

read Romans 1 and come back and we can talk...

Why not discuss the points already raised?

men hold down or suppress the truth in unrighteousness......man died in the fall...that is where you error once again.

Completely irrelevant and off topic. Try to focus.

Because God is not willing that any should perish...He makes Himself known to all men.

You can ignore the answer you were given but that is not wise as it was the truth of the passage.

I'm not the one leaving out large portions of my antagonist's response.

Now you repeat your error once again. The bible is not a poem that you suggest what it means to you...it declares truth which we are to believe.

Agreed.

Relevance? You need to actually address what has been said.

Quote:
You're commentary does not negate nor nullify a very simple statement.

It is because He is not willing that any should perish is the reason for His longsuffering.

Do you think the context introduces the "thief in the night" analogy in regards to...

...the Elect?

No, it is the Lost in view.

you are completely wrong once again and remain clueless that is your choice.You ignore the context and it's meaning.....


[/QUOTE]

What I don't ignore is...the rest of Scripture.

So when you can explain away the numerous clear passages where we see that all men have an opportunity, whether they are Elect or not, then you will begin to see that God remains Holy, Just, and compassionate towards the condition of fallen man.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

DC

I will respond to your attack and errors later on in the day. there is so much error and foolish ideas expressed, I would have to see it as a part time job just to respond to so much of your posts....which when you get responses...it is clear that they go right past you and you are void of understanding....so then you attack the person who offers you correction.

That is okay. We have seen this tried before and it fails each time. Your failed attempt is already D.O.A.....as your posts are filled with all manner of error.

I have found that someone like you who thinks they have it correct when they do not...really does not want an answer as you have already shown....and yet...in working through your errors it will show others why you have strayed from truth and why and how they can avoid such error for themselves!

In an effort to resist truth, you oppose yourself which is not wise. By spreading out your error over several posts...you hope to hide the failed responses....but I will go back and take each one and expose it to the light and truth of scripture and remove your hiding place....This will take place later in the day....one error at a time ....so when you try and wiggle away....it will not happen...it will be more obvious than it already is...lol.

Set your battle in array.

I look forward to it.


God bless.

 

[Van]

The claim God loved all men to the extent that Christ died for all men is inconsistent with what the scriptures teach about the love of God. This inconsistency occurs at several points:

Here the effort is to redefine love as transforming love. Thus by altered definition, support is asserted for God not demonstrating His love toward us (the ungodly) by dying for us.

1) The scriptures teach God's corrective chastisement is upon all He loves.

Here the effort is to claim that if God's "corrective chastisement" is not "upon" the lost, God does not love the lost. Again, a baseless assertion.

But the scriptures also teach not all are under this chastisement (Ps 93:12-13, 1Cor 11:32, Heb 12:6-8, Rev 3:19).

1) There is no Psalm 93:12 or 13, the chapter ends with verse 5.
2) 1 Cor. 11:32 refers to discipline for those saved. So the missing part is scripture saying God's discipline is upon all He loves.
3) Heb. 12:6-8 demonstrates that if we are without discipline, then we are not His children. To repeat, the missing part is scripture saying God's discipline is upon all He loves.
4) Rev. 3:19 refers to love (philo) which is reserved for those of His family. Thus an effort to establish a truth about philo love, and then claim it applies to agape love (John 3:16.)

2) The scriptures teach God's love is effectual in the sense it produces change in those receiving it; however, in no case is the effect universally observed; therefore, the cause cannot be universally applied (1Jn 4:19, Tit 3:3-5, Eph 2:4-5).

Here the effort is to claim everyone God demonstrates His love for, must via irresistible grace, love God. No verse says or implies this fiction. Our understanding of His love for us, i.e. Christ dying on the cross for us, is a prerequisite for us to love and trust in Jesus. But our love is not compelled.

For example we read, "19 We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19). The love of God toward us is the cause, and the effect is us loving God, however we know that not every human being loves God, therefore it is proof that God does not love every human being.

Again the missing piece is scripture that says God's love toward us compels us to love Him.

Next, Titus 3:3-5 actually refers to God's love of mankind.

Ephesians 2:4-5 says God's great (agape) love for us was shown even when we were dead in our sins. So two in a row that actually support my view.

Scriptures which refer to God loving the world or to Christ being given to the world (Jn 3:16, 1Jn 2:2) do not encompass all people without exception.

Here we have the effort to redefine "world" as not referring to fallen mankind. That dog will not hunt.

 

[Iconoclast]

Darrell C;

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

long suffering to usward is the elect.....God is not willing that any of them perish....he will save everyone peter is speaking of because he has decreed , and purposed to do so...

You're commentary does not negate nor nullify a very simple statement.

peters commentary gives clarity....I believe Peter:thumbs:

It is because He is not willing that any should perish is the reason for His longsuffering.

Not one of the elect will perish....multitudes of non elect will perish.....God is very willing as he will tell them depart from me I never at anytime knew you.

...the Elect?

No, it is the Lost in view.

It cannot be the lost...as Peter clearly says...God is NOT WILLING that any perish....and not one of these Peter speaks of is ever going to perish.....so your suggestion is unbiblical.

Oh, I see, if it's only half a verse we can toss what it says out.

:keep in mind....it was you and it is always those like you who offer half a verse......like Satan did to Jesus in luke 4...

To only use half a verse changes what God said. That is what you did. From your posts it seems like you have no trouble with that:wavey:

And not only was that pointed out in the first response, you have presented nothing that shows God hates those who will not be saved.

4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

6 Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the Lord will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

 

[Iconoclast]

Darrell C;.






Acts 2:32-40

King James Version (KJV)

32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

It's there all right, but it might not be seen if one does not want to see it.

My statement stands. An argument from silence is no argument at all. The Apostles did not share your false ideas that is why those ideas are not ACTUALLY in the text of scripture.

Not sure you realize it is your emotiuon and pride which is forcing you to make foolish assertions, denying some very Basic Bible Truth:

Do not project on me, what is true of you as that is exactly how you are conducting yourself.....

Isaiah 53

King James Version (KJV)

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.


Continued...

[/QUOTE]

another fine text....that does not teach what you say....

 

[Iconoclast]

Darrell C

Is it smugness, or Scripture, that is deflating your Theology System?

Scripture, of course.

You have done nothing to "deflate" my theological system...it is still alive and well....thanks for asking. The truth stands against both friendly error, or hostile error. If you want to deflate something...try your ego:laugh:

I have provided many.

The few in the initial response should be clear enough, but we can look at as much as you want

.

You offer some fine scripture that does not teach what you say however.




For not believing.

Just as the Children of Israel in the Wilderness, who also had the revealed will of God given unto them:

Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


God was angry with them for not believing. That is the same reason He will judge all unbelievers.

God is angry with the wicked everyday.....


18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness

Notice Paul does not say....the love of God is revealed....

The love of God is only found IN Christ.....

also notice how all men are truth suppressors.....which you denied earlier...that is why I suggested you study here before returning to the discussion:wavey:

And it is the same love of God which gave unto them that revelation by which they could be in relationship with Him through.

God is good to all men mt5:45.......that does not mean He extends His grace to all men......who are responsible to Him.

I guess it just becomes habit to cut Scripture out of the discussion. Let me put that back in for you"

Not at all......I just use scripture that is part of the topic...most you offer are not on the topic at all.:thumbs:

John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

This has nothing to do with the topic, unless you claim everyone is saved.

Great. So it is not "the world" as both John, as well as Christ refers to, just means Gentiles will be saved too.

correct....not evceryones sin will be removed...Jesus told them in Jn 8....they would die......in their sins.....plural......correct:thumbsup:

That might be reasonable if it were not for John also saying...


John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

maybe if you observed vs 10 you might come closer to truth......the world knew him not

And you're almost in luck, for every does not mean every, and man does not mean man, but it does mean...

...all.

What do you do with that?

First...I understand it correctly, then I believe it by God's grace.
Continued...[/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

Darrell C

Maybe you offer it, but there must be a nagging conflict as you wonder if you are wasting your time...

And yes, the Love of God is deep.
When I present the gospel to sinners there is no conflict at all....and it is never a waste of time because I only present The Love of God for sinners as being found IN Christ.....never, apart from Christ.

It is the wrath of God revealed in Rom1 that the sinner stands under,and unless he has Jesus savingly as the God given propitiation...that is all he will experience......

I see you like Zeph 3...so do I:laugh: Let's see which part you left out as you accuse me of doing this:laugh:

Zephaniah 3:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

Nice...you post a verse speaking of joy and love....but once again...who is the object of that love?........lets look-

5 The just Lord is in the midst thereof; he will not do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame.

6 I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed, so that there is no man, that there is none inhabitant.

7 I said, Surely thou wilt fear me, thou wilt receive instruction; so their dwelling should not be cut off, howsoever I punished them: but they rose early, and corrupted all their doings.

8 Therefore wait ye upon me, saith the Lord, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for my determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them mine indignation, even all my fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy.


oh no! Zephaniah should have checked with you first DC....so he could have said.....the love of God is poured out on the whole world:laugh:

you could have sang that song with Diana Warwick.....what the world needs now is LOVE SWEET LOVE.....lol


No....the object of God's saving love is the ELECT REMNANT ONCE AGAIN...
those in Covenant relationship with God.


You see DC......I like all the verses....:laugh:

11 In that day shalt thou not be ashamed for all thy doings, wherein thou hast transgressed against me: for then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride, and thou shalt no more be haughty because of my holy mountain.

12 I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust in the name of the Lord.

13 The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue be found in their mouth: for they shall feed and lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

14 Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem.

15 The Lord hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, even the Lord, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more.

16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: and to Zion, Let not thine hands be slack.

17 The Lord thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

18 I will gather them that are sorrowful for the solemn assembly, who are of thee, to whom the reproach of it was a burden.

19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame.

20 At that time will I bring you again, even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the Lord.

 

[Iconoclast]

Now, when you can say everyone of Israel is of the Elect, then perhaps you might deny the love of God for all men.

I can say that right now because I believe what Paul wrote here;6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

you can believe that also DC...give it a try:laugh:

Has it ever occurred to you that it is because God hates iniquity that He bestows love upon a people not worthy of anything but destruction?

yes...those people are the elect sheep:thumbs:

You are forgetting that the Elect are used to convey the truth.

And you are forgetting that even among the wicked we see God express His Word, the truth...

no....I am quite aware of that!


John 11:50-52

Men do not frustrate the righteousness of God.

His Word goes out regardless of the intentions of man.

:thumbsup:

Why not discuss the points already raised?

because when you ignore the verses that answer your objections the discussion goes down.

Completely irrelevant and off topic. Try to focus.

you call irrelevant the verses you need ...no wonder you miss the truth:laugh:

I'm not the one leaving out large portions of my antagonist's response.

like in zeph 3....lol

Relevance? You need to actually address what has been said.

every time you say this ,,,, truth is drifting past you.