God's Purpose Accord to Election

[canadyjd]

I mention the 1 Cor 2 passage because you mentioned discussing the doctrines of grace. This is one passage used to support the doctrine of total depravity.

It seems clearly taught that a person without the spirit of God. "natural man", is unable to understand the things of God the Spirit.

 

[utilyan]

I mention the 1 Cor 2 passage because you mentioned discussing the doctrines of grace. This is one passage used to support the doctrine of total depravity.

It seems clearly taught that a person without the spirit of God. "natural man", is unable to understand the things of God the Spirit.

Very good.

If you read 1 corinthians in one shot. It explains itself. I want you to keep in mind there is no "chapters" in scripture. its important because the section that follows tells us more.

If I were to presume the teaching total depravity no doubt we can fish for things can presume Natural Man to mean an unsaved individual. That equation was not made.

That is not what it means at all. we all have a natural man.

Lets start at the start.

1 Corinthians 1

2To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

His audience are saved people who are being saved. But there is trouble in that church.

1 Corinthians 1

11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.


1 Corinthians 1

18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1

22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;

The whole according to the Flesh = natural man. That points out to our common secular understanding.

Heres the part that follows let me put it together with your citation. Remember theres no actual chapters the whole thing is together.


1 corinthians 2


14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 corinthians 3

1And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.2I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?


So here we have Paul explaining to people he declared "those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling," as not ready for the the things of the spirit. They are infants in Christ. And that even the reader is not ready. "for you are still fleshly" ( i will underline this above)

This might open another can of worms because some folks understanding is a person is instantly regenerated and thus receiving gnostic understanding of all things. But here he is talking to those sanctified in Christ "natural man"




Everyone is still "FLESHY" "CARNAL" "NATURAL MAN".


The subject doesn't change from chapter 1 to 3. These Christians in the process of being saved are the "Natural Men"



This is a matter of someone starting with a philosophy and just fishing for their own meaning of a word without actually just trying to determine what exactly Paul is SAYING.



I understand how a person indoctrinated with philosophy wants to see:


14But the UNSAVED MAN receiveth not Jesus or The Gospel of GOD: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know IT, because they are spiritually discerned.


But if you just read what it SAYS and follow it into the next chapter. You are going to see he is clearly talking to CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS. Who just haven't reached that level of maturity. ( example: they had guys having affairs with their step mothers)

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

(the next "page")
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Paul is still having to talk to them as a "natural man" They are not going to get it yet.


Hope this helps.

PS. I picked up this explanation from a youtuber you can prob do search 1 Corinthians 2 Kevin Thompson

 

[canadyjd]

Very good.

If you read 1 corinthians in one shot. It explains itself. I want you to keep in mind there is no "chapters" in scripture. its important because the section that follows tells us more.

If I were to presume the teaching total depravity no doubt we can fish for things can presume Natural Man to mean an unsaved individual. That equation was not made.

That is not what it means at all. we all have a natural man.

Lets start at the start.

1 Corinthians 1

2To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

His audience are saved people who are being saved. But there is trouble in that church.

1 Corinthians 1

11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.


1 Corinthians 1

18For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1

22For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;

The whole according to the Flesh = natural man. That points out to our common secular understanding.

Heres the part that follows let me put it together with your citation. Remember theres no actual chapters the whole thing is together.


1 corinthians 2


14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 corinthians 3

1And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.2I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able, 3for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men? 4For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men?


So here we have Paul explaining to people he declared "those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling," as not ready for the the things of the spirit. They are infants in Christ. And that even the reader is not ready. "for you are still fleshly" ( i will underline this above)

This might open another can of worms because some folks understanding is a person is instantly regenerated and thus receiving gnostic understanding of all things. But here he is talking to those sanctified in Christ "natural man"




Everyone is still "FLESHY" "CARNAL" "NATURAL MAN".


The subject doesn't change from chapter 1 to 3. These Christians in the process of being saved are the "Natural Men"



This is a matter of someone starting with a philosophy and just fishing for their own meaning of a word without actually just trying to determine what exactly Paul is SAYING.



I understand how a person indoctrinated with philosophy wants to see:


14But the UNSAVED MAN receiveth not Jesus or The Gospel of GOD: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know IT, because they are spiritually discerned.


But if you just read what it SAYS and follow it into the next chapter. You are going to see he is clearly talking to CHRISTIAN BELIEVERS. Who just haven't reached that level of maturity. ( example: they had guys having affairs with their step mothers)

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

(the next "page")
1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

Paul is still having to talk to them as a "natural man" They are not going to get it yet.


Hope this helps.

PS. I picked up this explanation from a youtuber you can prob do search 1 Corinthians 2 Kevin Thompson

Good post. There is a lot to look at. I agree the letter is addressed to Christians and they do have problems. Also, I see what I call unfortunate chapter breaks that can hide context if we are not careful.

In the first chapter Paul distingishes between those who are perishing and those whom are being saved, those God has called for salvation. (Verses 18, 24) The determining element in that distinction is whether or not they believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ and specifically the death of Jesus on the cross (v 23)

This is the point Paul makes about the "natural man" being unable to understand the things of the spirit (specifically Christ crucified is the wisdom of God)

Only those to whom God Holy Spirit has given the Mind of Christ will understand and believe this truth. To everyone else it is foolishness or a stumbling block.

Paul does make the point that some professing Christains at that church are acting like the unsaved (mere men, carnal, fleshy) because they are splitting into groups.

For Paul, there are only 2 groups: Those who are perishing and those who are being saved. He urges them to consider their calling (The calling of God), to understand where their allegience lies.

He is saying that to shame them, to make them consider which group they belong to (those who are perishing or those who are being saved) and the role God Holy Spirit played in bringing them to faith.

 

[canadyjd]

Just to be clear and bring the focus to the issue of total depravity, Paul says the natural man is unable to understand the things of the spirit.

I believe the "natural man" is a reference to those who are perishing from chapter 1.

I believe the "spiritual things" that the natural man is unable to understand is a reference to Christ crucified from chapter 1. Christ crucified is the wisdom of God and the power of God.

Only by the power of God Holy Spirit (we are called, we have the Mind of Christ to guide us to this truth) are we, the called, able to understand the significance of Christ crucified.

Therefore, the doctrine of total depravity (i.e. the inability to understand and accept Christ crucified) is supported by these passages.

Paul's reference to those in the church that are "acting like mere men, carnal, fleshy" is an attempt to shame them by comparing them to "those who are perishing" and infants in need of milk in order to make them realize their allegiance is to God and not men.

 

[37818]

Unconditional election is to accuse God's purpose to be actually purposeless.

What is typically meant by unconditional election is there is no condition to be meant on the part of the elect. But that is not true. What is true the elect do not merit the election.

Conditions of election:
1) The elect do not merit the election.
2) The elect cannot merit the election.
3) The mere believing truth when required does not and cannot merit election.

 

[Rockson]

Good post. There is a lot to look at. I agree the letter is addressed to Christians and they do have problems. Also, I see what I call unfortunate chapter breaks that can hide context if we are not careful.

In the first chapter Paul distingishes between those who are perishing and those whom are being saved, those God has called for salvation. (Verses 18, 24) The determining element in that distinction is whether or not they believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ and specifically the death of Jesus on the cross (v 23)

This is the point Paul makes about the "natural man" being unable to understand the things of the spirit (specifically Christ crucified is the wisdom of God)

Only those to whom God Holy Spirit has given the Mind of Christ will understand and believe this truth. To everyone else it is foolishness or a stumbling block.

Paul does make the point that some professing Christains at that church are acting like the unsaved (mere men, carnal, fleshy) because they are splitting into groups.

For Paul, there are only 2 groups: Those who are perishing and those who are being saved. He urges them to consider their calling (The calling of God), to understand where their allegience lies.

He is saying that to shame them, to make them consider which group they belong to (those who are perishing or those who are being saved) and the role God Holy Spirit played in bringing them to faith.

Something in 1 Cor 1: 18-28 you really need to consider though. Yes there's the need to believe in the gospel of Christ but Calvinists have it all people outside of Christ are so absolutely depraved they cannot accept the wisdom of God without irresistible grace. That's not what 1 Cor 1 says though. It draws a real distinction between 2 different kinds of "natural people" People in the flesh who are mighty and noble who tend to be more prideful which in turn makes them less open to spiritual things for they think that they're self-made people, as compared to those of let's say the lower class who tend to show more humility to God.

Because THEY DO SO there's more of a possibility they'll receive the gospel. Now God has presented the gospel to all classes and from a capacity standpoint ALL CAN receive for the Spirit is seeking to draw all men to repentance.....but to say that the Spirit has to put it in a person , outside of the encouragement to repent which he does for ALL is error. You don't see irresistible grace in 1 Cor 1: 18-20 FOR if you did it wouldn't matter how mighty or noble you are in the natural. It wouldn't matter at all for you'd see just as many rich, noble and mighty people saved as the other.

Now what about natural man not being able to understand the things of God? Consider it men who have locked themselves into that which is worldly wisdom of a choice of their own will. There's worldly wisdom and God's wisdom. But not all unsaved people have locked themselves into worldly wisdom. God has presented his wisdom to the more lowly type of people AND...they received! He presents it to the noble as well but most of them reject not because God deciding but rather they.

But the lowly don't allow their status to vaunt themselves against God because they have no status...they're the weak things of this world, not that they're weak in reality BUT considered weak by the more proud for they see their need for spiritual things. That's not because of irresistible grace but because of status in this world. That's not real weakness but it's perceived to be so by ones into worldly wisdom.

Having said all this I'm not saying God doesn't have do a work with the sinner bringing conviction, encouragement and enlightenment to repent and that we don't need that, WE DO. But God does that towards all humanity not just a select few. The mighty and noble are more prone to reject the message but such doesn't mean God didn't want them saved. Well some would say God would just have to apply his irresistible grace and the mighty and the noble's pride would be gone.

But God insists all sinners show humility before him for God resists the proud and but gives his grace to the humble. So the natural man in 1 Cor 1& 2 isn't referring to 100 % of all sinners. Saints were natural but they chose to embrace divine wisdom...for those who chose to retain the worldly wisdom that's correct...they're natural....and as long as one stays in worldly wisdom they cannot receive the things of God.

 

[37818]

There is the non-Calvinist view that "through sanctification of the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14) and that the word God is alive (Hebrews 4:12) for which His elect (Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 2:1-2) did not resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51).

 

[Reformed]

Unconditional election is to accuse God's purpose to be actually purposeless.

Are you saying that unconditional election contradicts God's purpose, or are you saying that critics of unconditional election make that charge?

 

[37818]

Are you saying that unconditional election contradicts God's purpose, or are you saying that critics of unconditional election make that charge?

From the perspective that God's purpose is the condition of election. And when truth is a condition, that the election is also unmerited as a condition.

Unconditional election is not logical, and is self contradictory. Only universal salvation can be truly unconditional. And that is not Biblical. Ironically one of the chief arguments against general redemption is the argument that would make salvation universal! (see Romans 14:9-11; 2 Corinthians 5:14)

 

[Reformed]

Respectfully, I believe you are making the error of conflating election with justification. The Monergist view of election (Unconditional Election) does not require any condition; either on the One electing or the one elected. The Father chose His elect since before creation (Eph. 1:4). He also chose His elect independent of any choice or action on the part of the individual (Rom. 9:10-13). In the Monergist ordo salutis, election comes first. It precedes atonement, gospel call, inward call, regeneration, conversion, justification, sanctification, and glorification. It is during conversion, justification, and glorification that conditions are present; namely repentance, faith, and obedience. These conditions are driven by the former parts of the ordo salutis and are the manifestation of the work of the Holy Spirit, through the new birth, in the life of the believer.

So, Unconditional Election is profoundly logical and self-affirming when understood for what it is and what it is not.

 

[utilyan]

I'm not sure what video link

Just to be clear and bring the focus to the issue of total depravity, Paul says the natural man is unable to understand the things of the spirit.

I believe the "natural man" is a reference to those who are perishing from chapter 1.

I believe the "spiritual things" that the natural man is unable to understand is a reference to Christ crucified from chapter 1. Christ crucified is the wisdom of God and the power of God.

Only by the power of God Holy Spirit (we are called, we have the Mind of Christ to guide us to this truth) are we, the called, able to understand the significance of Christ crucified.

Therefore, the doctrine of total depravity (i.e. the inability to understand and accept Christ crucified) is supported by these passages.

Paul's reference to those in the church that are "acting like mere men, carnal, fleshy" is an attempt to shame them by comparing them to "those who are perishing" and infants in need of milk in order to make them realize their allegiance is to God and not men.

"Therefore, the doctrine of total depravity (i.e. the inability to understand and accept Christ crucified) is supported by these passages."

According to Calvinist understanding. Who is this person that is UNREGENERATED that qualifies as being alive rather then dead or perishing?

In other words if you want to pit the gospel with reference to the totally depraved, the natural man, perishing, fleshy person is the most fertile soil you can find.

There couldn't possibly be a complaint based on who can receive the gospel or not, because it all ends up being based on the whim of God's choice.

Faith comes by HEARING. You were not PRE-REGENERATED before hearing the gospel. You as the "natural man" the one "PERISHING" were you not "saved". Do you tell us "well I was never in danger at all, so I can't be saved"


1 corinthians 1

; 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,


Now what would be the point in having a perisher natural man come to shame?

What exactly should MR. reprobate be ashamed of compared to you?

It almost sounds like God wants a person to be HUMILIATED and to REPENT rather then leave them in their vanity.

And so what if they are left in their vanity? its not their virtuousness, its not the quality of the man but by the Grace of God only which they are saved.

Why is God taking a act of discipline to shock the "perishing fools" ?

Its rather pointless and God is certainly not a sore winner. So how is it God is throwing the ball in their court?


What kind of a person would lock their dog in their room they can't possibly get out on their own for a whole week and then make it a point for the dog to be ashamed for making a mess of the floor?


Pin the donkey's tail for me. Where/when does the regeneration occur for someone to understand the cross is not foolishness at all? BEFORE hearing the gospel? AFTER hearing the Gospel? WHILE hearing the Gospel?

 

[37818]

I'm not sure what video link


"Therefore, the doctrine of total depravity (i.e. the inability to understand and accept Christ crucified) is supported by these passages."

According to Calvinist understanding. Who is this person that is UNREGENERATED that qualifies as being alive rather then dead or perishing?

In other words if you want to pit the gospel with reference to the totally depraved, the natural man, perishing, fleshy person is the most fertile soil you can find.

There couldn't possibly be a complaint based on who can receive the gospel or not, because it all ends up being based on the whim of God's choice.

Faith comes by HEARING. You were not PRE-REGENERATED before hearing the gospel. You as the "natural man" the one "PERISHING" were you not "saved". Do you tell us "well I was never in danger at all, so I can't be saved"


1 corinthians 1

; 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,


Now what would be the point in having a perisher natural man come to shame?

What exactly should MR. reprobate be ashamed of compared to you?

It almost sounds like God wants a person to be HUMILIATED and to REPENT rather then leave them in their vanity.

And so what if they are left in their vanity? its not their virtuousness, its not the quality of the man but by the Grace of God only which they are saved.

Why is God taking a act of discipline to shock the "perishing fools" ?

Its rather pointless and God is certainly not a sore winner. So how is it God is throwing the ball in their court?


What kind of a person would lock their dog in their room they can't possibly get out on their own for a whole week and then make it a point for the dog to be ashamed for making a mess of the floor?


Pin the donkey's tail for me. Where/when does the regeneration occur for someone to understand the cross is not foolishness at all? BEFORE hearing the gospel? AFTER hearing the Gospel? WHILE hearing the Gospel?

Paul wrote in his second letter to the Corinthians, ". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:3.
The implication being unless one understands the gosoel one is perishing (lost).

 

[Reformed]

Paul wrote in his second letter to the Corinthians, ". . . But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 4:3.
The implication being unless one understands the gosoel one is perishing (lost).

Your snip of 2 Corinthians 4 does an injustice to the text. In context, it reads:

2 Corinthians 4:1-4 1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Paul is boldly preaching the glory of Christ (2 Cor. 3) that does not fade away like the reflection of God's glory that Moses temporarily possessed after leaving the tabernacle. Paul then makes his statement about the gospel being veiled to those who are perishing. He qualifies his statement by writing, "in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light". You missed this very important part. Those who are perishing are blinded, so that they may not see. Who is the "god of this world". Ephesians sheds some light on this:

Ephesians 2:1-2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

The god of this world is the same as the prince of the power of the air: Satan.

So, actually, the passage in 2 Corinthians 4 does not refute Unconditional Election*, it underscores it.

*I like the late R.C. Sproul's definition of Unconditional Election. He termed it, "Sovereign Election".

 

[Rockson]

I'm not sure what video link

What kind of a person would lock their dog in their room they can't possibly get out on their own for a whole week and then make it a point for the dog to be ashamed for making a mess of the floor?

I think you're on to something here. In this crazy world where it seems people care more about animals than they do about people it's easier to understand an analogy.

 

[37818]

Your snip of 2 Corinthians 4 does an injustice to the text. In context, it reads:

2 Corinthians 4:1-4 1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2 but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Paul is boldly preaching the glory of Christ (2 Cor. 3) that does not fade away like the reflection of God's glory that Moses temporarily possessed after leaving the tabernacle. Paul then makes his statement about the gospel being veiled to those who are perishing. He qualifies his statement by writing, "in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light". You missed this very important part. Those who are perishing are blinded, so that they may not see. Who is the "god of this world". Ephesians sheds some light on this:

Ephesians 2:1-2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

The god of this world is the same as the prince of the power of the air: Satan.

So, actually, the passage in 2 Corinthians 4 does not refute Unconditional Election*, it underscores it.

*I like the late R.C. Sproul's definition of Unconditional Election. He termed it, "Sovereign Election".

Do you deny that the election is wholly unmerited on the part of the elect? I see unmerited faith as a condition which takes place following the gospel call to believe (Romans 4:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

 

[canadyjd]

I'm not sure what video link


"Therefore, the doctrine of total depravity (i.e. the inability to understand and accept Christ crucified) is supported by these passages."

According to Calvinist understanding. Who is this person that is UNREGENERATED that qualifies as being alive rather then dead or perishing?

In other words if you want to pit the gospel with reference to the totally depraved, the natural man, perishing, fleshy person is the most fertile soil you can find.

There couldn't possibly be a complaint based on who can receive the gospel or not, because it all ends up being based on the whim of God's choice.

Faith comes by HEARING. You were not PRE-REGENERATED before hearing the gospel. You as the "natural man" the one "PERISHING" were you not "saved". Do you tell us "well I was never in danger at all, so I can't be saved"


1 corinthians 1

; 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,


Now what would be the point in having a perisher natural man come to shame?

What exactly should MR. reprobate be ashamed of compared to you?

It almost sounds like God wants a person to be HUMILIATED and to REPENT rather then leave them in their vanity.

And so what if they are left in their vanity? its not their virtuousness, its not the quality of the man but by the Grace of God only which they are saved.

Why is God taking a act of discipline to shock the "perishing fools" ?

Its rather pointless and God is certainly not a sore winner. So how is it God is throwing the ball in their court?


What kind of a person would lock their dog in their room they can't possibly get out on their own for a whole week and then make it a point for the dog to be ashamed for making a mess of the floor?


Pin the donkey's tail for me. Where/when does the regeneration occur for someone to understand the cross is not foolishness at all? BEFORE hearing the gospel? AFTER hearing the Gospel? WHILE hearing the Gospel?

I'd rather you not make this discussion personal. Let's just stick to the text.

I'm trying to understand your point, but I'm not sure. I'll answer based on what I think your point is.

The "natural man" is the default state of all of humanity, including the elect of God prior to regeneration. Dead in trespasses and sin. The "most fertile soil" is the heart of the elect that has been cultivated by Holy Spirit in preparation of the gospel.

Your statements about dogs and shaming the natural man doesn't make sense to me concerning the issue of total depravity.

The text says that God was "well pleased" to shame those who are wise according to the world by bringing salvation through a method (Christ crucified) that no one can embrace without God Holy Spirit intervening. It is the wisdom and Power of God that believers alone can see and understand because they have the mind of Christ.

Your question about when regeneration occurs doesn't apply to the discussion of total depravity found in this passage. When we fully discuss total depravity, maybe we can move on to that.

Do you understand why I view this passage the way I do?

 

[Reformed]

Do you deny that the election is wholly unmerited on the part of the elect? I see unmerited faith as a condition which takes place following the gospel call to believe (Romans 4:5; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

Did you even bother to read what I wrote in post #30? There comes a point in the Ordo Salutis when faith/belief is a condition, but it is wholly unmerited.

 

[Reformed]

Ephesians 2:4-9 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This Pauline passage makes the clear and succinct point that regeneration ("made us alive", v. 5) is a unilateral work of the Holy Spirit before the condition of faith comes into play. It is the Holy Spirit that changes the heart of stone into a heart of flesh (Ezk. 36:26) which makes faith possible. While faith is a condition, it is a condition gifted by God (Eph 2:8). Since it is God who makes the individual alive through regeneration (Tit. 3:5), the individual will always exercise saving faith.

 

[37818]

Did you even bother to read what I wrote in post #30? There comes a point in the Ordo Salutis when faith/belief is a condition, but it is wholly unmerited.

The election precedes (Ephesians 1:4) justification (Romans 4:5). Both are unmerited, right?

 

[utilyan]

I'd rather you not make this discussion personal. Let's just stick to the text.

I'm trying to understand your point, but I'm not sure. I'll answer based on what I think your point is.

The "natural man" is the default state of all of humanity, including the elect of God prior to regeneration. Dead in trespasses and sin. The "most fertile soil" is the heart of the elect that has been cultivated by Holy Spirit in preparation of the gospel.

Your statements about dogs and shaming the natural man doesn't make sense to me concerning the issue of total depravity.

The text says that God was "well pleased" to shame those who are wise according to the world by bringing salvation through a method (Christ crucified) that no one can embrace without God Holy Spirit intervening. It is the wisdom and Power of God that believers alone can see and understand because they have the mind of Christ.

Your question about when regeneration occurs doesn't apply to the discussion of total depravity found in this passage. When we fully discuss total depravity, maybe we can move on to that.

Do you understand why I view this passage the way I do?

Even if the shame God causes is merely to satisfy himself ritributively (sadistjk)

Shame has a purpose. Namely that you recognize the wrong. There is a particular dissatisfaction,, how is that going to occur while simultaneously believing GOD is NOT RIGHT at all?

There is multiple instances, where all this makes sense as an appeal to reconciliation. But its not going to work with a model based by divine chance.

Romans 11

13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Now If I were in Paul's shoes and a Calvinist, I know attempting to move Jewish rejectors toward God is a personal impossibility for me to accomplish. I need to be moving God, begging him to do something about it.

And then even there prayer doesn't do anything, I might as well chalk up the idea of even having to request to trust in God.


"The "most fertile soil" is the heart of the elect that has been cultivated by Holy Spirit in preparation of the gospel."

Then that is not totally depravity, would mean only reprobates are totally depraved.

My understanding is you have no capacity to seek after God AT ALL, until AFTER REGENERATION.

Remember Thanos? If you are picked then you are picked.

That is the total Gospel. If you are picked then you are picked, Smokem if you gottem.

God can't be swayed, he is not changing his mind. You either come MARKED or not.

Both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond. You got the MARK you are better then everyone else.

That doesn't fly with me.



You know canadyjd,

If the whole universe was elect and chosen but you.
Do you think I would be satisfied with a heaven without you?



“Up till then he had been looking at the Lion's great front feet and the huge claws on them; now, in his despair, he looked up at its face. What he saw surprised him as much as anything in his whole life. For the tawny face was bent down near his own and (wonder of wonders) great shining tears stood in the Lion's eyes. They were such big, bright tears compared with Digory's own that for a moment he felt as if the Lion must really be sorrier about his Mother than he was himself. "My son, my son," said Aslan. "I know. Grief is great. Only you and I in this land know that yet. Let us be good to one another.”― C.S. Lewis