Dave much appreciated if you'd respond to what I said about this below.
You said this ==>
Because it was necessary to speak the Gospel first to the Jews as a nation ( Acts of the Apostles 13:46 ), and then it would go forth to the Gentiles. What really does that have to do with Jesus continuing to exhort them to believe? My statements below,
Because His promise of salvation was first to the nation of Israel.
Just because they did not believe, as a nation, does not mean that the promise was any less genuine.
[My sheep hear my voice] Dave think of a sports coach. He says, "My players listen to my instructions." Does that mean they didn't have to choose to?
It's not the same as Scripture.
Reasoning it out as a coach telling his players ( who are all "independent agents" with an equal say in every decision ) something is not the same as Christ declaring that His sheep will
do something...they are His sheep, and they act like sheep.
Christ's sheep come when the Shepherd of their souls calls them.
They will not come when a false shepherd calls them, but will "hear" His voice and His alone.
It is a characteristic of being one of His sheep...not a "condition" that must be met.
I think that is where you are misunderstanding it, at least from my perspective.
Look at what he said! He said though you believe not me, in other words...the usual way of becoming a sheep is by believing my word....BUT....look....if you're not going to do that then at least you should look at the works and let that be convincing to you! Convince them of what? Convincing them that the Father is in him and I in him!
I know what He said; I can read it just fine.
I thank you for pointing it out to me, however.
He was speaking to Israel, a nation that agreed to follow Him and His covenant.
I'm not sure why you do not understand that.
Christ is speaking spiritually, not with man's wisdom ( John 6:63, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).
He's holding Israel responsible to obey the Gospel, even though He knows most will not.
Why?
Because they are His chosen, earthly nation who are bound under a covenant of Law to Him and His words.
I also think that when you read the passage, your mind jumps to the conclusion that believing is how one becomes a sheep.
I used to do this many years ago when I read His word in bits and relevant pieces ( as I'd been taught to in Independent Baptist churches ), but I now no longer do.
To me, John 10:26
should dispel that idea and cause you to re-think your conclusions, and seek out how one gets to be a sheep...
The details are in Scripture, and it literally is littered all over the place.
It's called "Election".
It was revealed to Moses, David, and others before Christ came, and to Paul, Peter, John and many others after.
So....if language means anything he started off by telling them they were not his sheep and that's where Calvinists stop reading.
I disagree.
He doesn't start off telling them that they were not His sheep.
He starts off in His last 3 years condemning them, and rightfully so, for not holding up their end of the covenant...and when faced with the very God that they made their promises to, they then balked at Him.
He starts off commanding them to repent and believe the Gospel.
He knows that He is preaching to a mixed audience ( John 6:64-65, Romans 11:1-8 ), and still, He has the right to command them...the same as at Mount Sinai.
But he still said with great longing the thought of "Look you can still become my sheep. If you look at the works it should convince you and being convinced in turn you'll believe me words! Thus becoming HIS SHEEP.
Again, I disagree.
He did
not say the above with great longing.
I happen to think that you are reading that into the text in your own way.
To me, you read the passage and very nearly skip right over the significance of Him telling them that they do not believe, because they are not of His sheep ( John 10:26 ).
If belief were by their own efforts ( instead of God's ) then that would contradict His statement of them not believing because they are not His sheep.
As far as "Calvinists" stopping in their reading, I cannot speak for them;
I read the whole text, and it flows like a conversation, not a series of clear thoughts punctuated by things that confuse me ( and I skip over or try to bounce off commentaries in order to understand them deeper, like some I have met, do ).
I know very few who read the Scriptures and understand them without the help of men.
I know quite a few who think that they absolutely
need men to teach them the understanding of Scripture, when they should be able to rely on God alone to do it ( 1 John 2:27, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Isaiah 54:13, John 6:45 ).
I cannot explain why I see things the way I do, only that I do.
I
do know that the Holy Spirit is the believer's Teacher, and they know all things ( 1 John 2:20-21 ).
They are given teachers within the body of Christ to show them where the answers are in God's word, not to give them that understanding.
Teaching Scripture to a child of God is
God's job, not man's.
It cannot be done thoroughly using secular methods of delivering subject matter, like secular institutions do it.
Each of God's children has the right and the duty to go directly to His word and learn for themselves...
To me, if a person does not think that they can do that, it is for two reasons:
1) They have been lied to and told that they cannot understand it by direct "revelation"...God giving them the correct understanding of it as individuals, instead of as part of competing "denominations" that teach it from their "seminaries".
2) They are not God's children ( John 8:47 ), even though they think they've done all the "right things" to gain salvation.
With respect, Rockson, we've been over this a fair number of times now.
I'm not trying to be mean, but I've shown you the Scriptures regarding God's choice of the sinner to salvation, and to me, they seem to just bounce off without ever being taken seriously.
You seem focused on asking me questions according to human reasoning...I'm not interested in answering what the Bible tells me is faulty human reasoning and logic, with more of the same...I'm interested in replying to the questions you may pose with what God Himself says.
I believe His words because they are my Saviour's perfect and trustable words, even if they don't immediately "make sense" to me ( John 6:66-69 ).
But I also know that the more I read His words, the more He will show me what they mean, because I know His words are understandable the more effort I put into them.
Election is part of God's word like anything else...unfortunately too many visible churches refuse to teach it, even though it is in the Bible.
Why?
Perhaps because so many find it so offensive.
I don't.
It's truth, and truth is not to be shunned, no matter how difficult or "unlikely" it is to be true.
Yes, election is hard to understand.
No, it's not impossible to understand for God's children.
I'll have to leave it at that.
If you don't see it, you don't see it, at least not the same way I do.
From here on out, I will make every effort not to reply to you on this subject any further.
We don't agree; and my trying to explain election, from my perspective, only seems to confuse you.
To me, you continue to see salvation as an "offer" and as something that, in effect, becomes a reward when all the conditions to gain it, are met.
I see it as a gift, through no effort of my own.
I see it as something that happened
to me, not something
I made happen.
I cannot change your thinking, and you cannot change mine.
I see Scripture one way, and you appear to see it another.
I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you.
