God's Purpose Accord to Election

[Dave G]

by grace are ye saved through faith . . ." Again, faith preceding the salvation.

Justification is the act of God in making a person just, or righteous, in His sight ( Romans 8:33 ).
Our actions as believers do not "justify" us, Gods actions on the part of men through His Son, do.

Faith is the evidence of it ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
When the Bible says that believers are justified by faith, it means, at least to me, that their faith is the evidence of their justification by God.
I'm not sure what it means to you.
Are you looking for passages that state that faith is a gift?

Ephesians 2:8-10

That faith is from God?

Romans 3:21-22
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 3:22

As I see it, the faith "of Christ" literally means the faith from Christ.


Are you looking for Scripture that specifically states that faith precedes regeneration?
It will take some time to run through it all.
The Bible is not silent on the subject, but it is quite detailed.

Are you looking for passages that directly or indirectly state that belief is a work of God?
Those I can give:

John 6:29
John 6:36-40
John 6:44
John 6:64-65
John 17:2
Romans 8:29-30
Ephesians 1:4-5
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
Philippians 1:29

According to these, belief on Christ resulted from God doing a work for men...
Not belief on Christ resulting in God doing a work for men.

If men could perform an action to gain eternal life, that would be works and would result in eternal life as a reward.
Voila!
That is exactly what every false religion in the world teaches...salvation by man's efforts, whatever those efforts might entail.
"Simple belief" would secure the greatest gift God could ever give; only it wouldn't truly be a gift, if that were the way it was gained.

It took me many years to understand this in my reading of Scripture.
It is my understanding and experience that God gives those answers to His children; but they have to be willing to do what He commands...

Read His word over and over again, my friend.
It takes time to sink in, because we as believers are dull of hearing ( 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, Hebrews 5:11 ) and need time in His word.
Years, from my perspective.



May God bless you in your studies.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sanctification occurs first (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

Why would God sanctify first someone who was still a lost sinner and not reconciled back to him yet?

 

[Yeshua1]

I said my last post was going to be my last in this thread, but I cannot leave this thread being misunderstood. Sanctification of the Spirit is nothing less than the combined process of regeneration through justification. In post #30 I discussed the Monergist (or Reformed) Ordo Salutis. In order it is:

Election and Predestination
The Atonement
The Gospel Call
The Inward Call (effectual call)
Regeneration
Faith and Repentance (conversion)
Justification
Sanctification
Glorification

The sanctification of the Spirit covers regeneration, faith & repentance, and justification. The sanctification of the Spirit is completely different from Progressive Sanctification, the process in which we become more like Christ in our behavior. The first type of sanctification is directly linked to the new birth while the second type of sanctification is the working out of our faith as we journey in the Christian life. The same Spirit is at work in both, but both are distinct from each other. So, 37818, we are not in agreement.

How can sanctification come before any other step, as the holy Spirit Himself is the One to works in us to conform us to Jesus, and he must have us justified and indwelt before that process!

 

[Yeshua1]

Justification is the act of God in making a person just, or righteous, in His sight ( Romans 8:33 ).
Our actions as believers do not "justify" us, Gods actions on the part of men through His Son, do.

Faith is the evidence of it ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
When the Bible says that believers are justified by faith, it means, at least to me, that their faith is the evidence of their justification by God.
I'm not sure what it means to you.
Are you looking for passages that state that faith is a gift?

Ephesians 2:8-10

That faith is from God?

Romans 3:21-22
Galatians 2:16
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 3:22

As I see it, the faith "of Christ" literally means the faith from Christ.


Are you looking for Scripture that specifically states that faith precedes regeneration?
It will take some time to run through it all.
The Bible is not silent on the subject, but it is quite detailed.

Are you looking for passages that directly or indirectly state that belief is a work of God?
Those I can give:

John 6:29
John 6:36-40
John 6:44
John 6:64-65
John 17:2
Romans 8:29-30
Ephesians 1:4-5
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
Philippians 1:29

According to these, belief on Christ resulted from God doing a work for men...
Not belief on Christ resulting in God doing a work for men.

If men could perform an action to gain eternal life, that would be works and would result in eternal life as a reward.
Voila!
That is exactly what every false religion in the world teaches...salvation by man's efforts, whatever those efforts might entail.
"Simple belief" would secure the greatest gift God could ever give; only it wouldn't truly be a gift, if that were the way it was gained.

It took me many years to understand this in my reading of Scripture.
It is my understanding and experience that God gives those answers to His children; but they have to be willing to do what He commands...

Read His word over and over again, my friend.
It takes time to sink in, because we as believers are dull of hearing ( 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, Hebrews 5:11 ) and need time in His word.
Years, from my perspective.



May God bless you in your studies.

Unless god grants to us a new heart and gives us ears to hear with, we remain deaf to the Gospel!

 

[37818]

Why would God sanctify first someone who was still a lost sinner and not reconciled back to him yet?

In order for that person obey the truth in order to believe in order to be saved.

 

[Yeshua1]

In order for that person obey the truth in order to believe in order to be saved.

That would not be given to him by sanctification, but by regeneration!

 

[Rockson]

I would think it should be obvious... but I'm finding out, the older I get, that not everyone who claims to be saved understands Scripture the same way I do.
I think that is why there are so many denominations.

I take it literally.
The Psalms are songs, but they contain many spiritual truths.

You're taking it literally? Really? Or are you really picking and choosing from those very Psalms what fits your doctrine to take literally. You don't believe the ungodly eat up God's children like bread. You don't believe it's saying they're cannibals. You don't believe that the sinner doesn't do ANY good or to ANY degree at all so I challenge you on that....I contend you don't take it literally.

I don't think I've proven your point at all.
I don't look at it as a matter of degrees...I believe that I look at sin as God does:

Degrees of sin does not make any difference, as God treats all sin, in His holiness, as warranting eternal death.

I'm not saying he doesn't! But there are varying degrees as to how much men do yield in resistance to God, some totally and some not so much and if there are degrees of how much one persecutes God's people there would be degrees to how much one wouldn't receive God's call of repentance as well. I don't deny God leads us and encourages us to repent but your position is God just rams that condition into one.

You genuinely do not see it, do you?

I don't agree with your Calvinistic theology David sorry but NO I don't.

When you read Scripture, you see no connection between man being bankrupt, morally, and God creating in someone a clean heart in order to establish a relationship with them?

I believe man has a depraved nature from birth. I believe men can hear God's righteous decrees and some inwardly can choose to want to adhere to them but as far as their will but they can't walk in perfection of keeping the law, thus provision was made for atonement. I don't believe it took a special regeneration in peoples hearts for people to want to serve God although I acknowledge greater numbers don't.

I believe the promise of God's to give a new heart was for after the time when Jesus arose. Now we're new creations. They weren't such before Jesus rose from the dead. If the new heart was a universal thing from the time of Adam (that is put into the righteous) then why was it a future tense promise? What about all the righteous from the times before. I believe men were told to do something with their hearts too....Deut 10:16

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn.
Deut 10:16

This instructions was spoken to people who had not received as yet the heart of the new creation. If it took regeneration to have this a reality then why the need to give the instruction?

 

[Dave G]

How can sanctification come before any other step, as the holy Spirit Himself is the One to works in us to conform us to Jesus, and he must have us justified and indwelt before that process!

There are two types of sanctification, Y1.

One happened at the cross for His elect, the second happens in our lifetime...for the elect.

See my post # 66.

@Dave Gilbert * Gets out his handy dictionary and looks up the word, "conflate" *

Hmmm..." Fuse together", "combine", "mix together", "blend".
Got it.

Yep, that's what I was doing alright.
However, it was very helpful that you told me I was "conflating", because it prompted me to look at the rest of what God's word says about sanctification.

Here we go some more:

" Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ." ( 1 Corinthians 1:1-3 ) <------ This happened at the cross.

" Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." ( 1 Peter 1:1-2 ) <----- Again, this happened at the cross.


I also see that believers are then "sanctified" in their walk and in their growth:

" If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master’s use, [and] prepared unto every good work." ( 2 Timothy 2:21 ) <----- This happens as the believer grows in grace and knowledge.

" For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 that every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 that no [man] go beyond and defraud his brother in [any] matter: because that the Lord [is] the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit." ( 1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 ) <----- Same here.

And in these:

Colossians 3.

Galatians 5:13-26.

Ephesians 4:17-32

" Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." ( 2 Corinthians 7:1 )

And now I'm done.
I agree with both of you.

The way I see things,
Sanctification of the believer ( in the eyes of God the Father ) happened at the cross, and precedes regeneration.
Sanctification in our walk occurs in our lifetimes, and succeeds regeneration.

I "con"cede the floor.




May God bless you richly.

 

[Rockson]

David was said to be a man after God's own heart ( Acts of the Apostles 13:22 ).
How, if every man's heart is darkened ( Romans 1:18-32 )?

Well you see right there though you went off and quoted something out of context. It seems Calvinists do this all the time with Rom 1.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Rom 1:18

All men's hearts were not darkened from birth. They had ample time to glorify God as God and could have done so but resisted and rejected the truth. Any person or culture which persists in rebellion their hearts become darkened, not were absolutely darkened from birth. It says their imaginations became vain....NOT FROM BIRTH Day 1. This is speaking of different cultures at different times where God would eventually give them up to become reprobates.... not at birth! They became fools is a future experience.....again not at birth.

How, if every man at his heart is only ever hating God ( John 15:18-23, Matthew 10:22 ) and loving sin ( John 3:19-20 )?

“If the world hates you....." John 15:18 He said the word IF. Did it say EVERYONE in the world will hate you? Or is he saying rather you can expect as a general rule that people living in the worldly system will. Quite a big difference Dave. Some people living in the worldly system won't necessarily hate you. Plain and simple.

And you quote Matt 10:22 ==> And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake..."
Dave by saying "every man at his heart is only ever hating God, you're setting aside context! Two things it's taking primarily about a certain period of time when things will become more so dark. This varies from generation to generation.

Paul even stated in the time of the end perilous times would come. 2 Tim 3:1 Men would become lovers of themselves, boasters, proud ....(and he builds a list) For sure all throughout time from Adam there's been ungodliness HOWEVER....CLEARLY Paul is acknowledging the degree of this varies in different eras, thus the declaration,

"Perilous times will come" Would he say "will come" if it was always the same?

Also keep in mind Matt 10:22 can't mean "all men hate you " in the way you're reading it. One can say of our culture the whole country has turned against Christians and hate believers. Does that mean 100% of every citizen hates them? Jesus couldn't have been meaning that for in the same chapter he says, Matt 10: 40-41 ==> He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. He's saying some people in the culture will receive you. How could that be if EVERYONE hated them. So can you cherry pick a verse and say all men in totality hate. I think not.

 

[Rockson]

In the underlined I see something the Bible calls, "man's wisdom"; To me, it has absolutely nothing to do with God's wisdom."To each their own" is like saying, " mankind can do anything he or she wants, their own way... instead of God's way.

I'm well aware of that but aren't you're willingly choosing to miss the point? The point is not every single person unsaved is wanting to eat up God's people like bread. Some people are content with having a "to each their own" or "live and let live" mentality.

Yes that's worldly wisdom but it does demonstrate that you can't take David's hyperballies absolutely literally. I kindly suggest that's what you do and that's where you err.

Paul's using the poetic, hyperballies of David wasn't to define the depraved nature of men with an exact definition. He gave it rather to encourage Israel to believe and know that THEY TOO are with sin the same of the Gentiles. Paul was basically saying don't condemn them when we're just as guilty. (Romans 2)

Because God created in David a clean heart.
That is what Ezekiel said had to happen ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 ) and what Christ said had to happen ( John 3:3-8 ). if a person is going to inherit eternal life.

And you notice that those are prophetic statements about the new birth, the new heart that hadn't as yet been provided. David lived hundreds of years prior to Ezekiel so can you claim he had this regenerated heart? I think not.

A thought is as good as a deed.
For example, Matthew 5:27-28.

Yes but a thought of not wanting to serve God isn't the same as the actions of not doing so. Read===> Matt 21:28

God says that all have sinned.
I agree with Him.

Yes I agree with that. And that's why Paul pointed this out to his Jewish audience in Romans. To let them know that they too were in need of salvation.

I also have sinned, countless times.
I have thought bad thoughts, I have thought about cursing someone, and even done it in anger.
A thought is as good as a word or a deed.

Temptation IS NOT the same as sin. It can be if it's overly mediated upon. Christians have come under condemnation for thoughts that flash across their mind of temptation. That's not sin. Over mediation upon it is. But even if one is tempted not to want to serve God or to come into relationship with him such doesn't mean they hold to that mentality forever and can't repent. Gods convicts all through the gospel and encourages sinners to repent and they can do what he says to do and this is without an irresistible force you'd call irresistible grace.

 

[Rockson]

Because His promise of salvation was first to the nation of Israel.
Just because they did not believe, as a nation, does not mean that the promise was any less genuine.

Well Dave I'll let lurkers decide is what anything you say above has any connection whatsoever to my post # 93. Sorry but as for me you purposely didn't even seek to give a fair and reasonable answer. It just seemed you wanted to say something to say something and move on.

It's not the same as Scripture.
Reasoning it out as a coach telling his players ( who are all "independent agents" with an equal say in every decision )

No they don't. The coach calls the overall plays. What do you think a time out is?

something is not the same as Christ declaring that His sheep will do something...they are His sheep, and they act like sheep.
Christ's sheep come when the Shepherd of their souls calls them.

So do the players of a time to their coach. Sorry but you've been given a perfect analogy of how you should consider the My Sheep hear my voice and you've chosen to reject it.

He doesn't start off telling them that they were not His sheep.

Oh my gosh! No offense but Dave how do you come off saying such a thing? Here it is in vs 26,
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you...and in vs 37 we see him exhort the same people with the following, But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

That doesn't translate to you that he said they weren't his sheep BUT came back and encouraged them STILL to believe....THAT===> they may KNOW and believe that the Father was in him and he in him? That wouldn't have become the equivalent of them not becoming his sheep? It saddens me that you so blatantly would seek to deny the truth of this. Oh well....what more can be said?

You seem focused on asking me questions according to human reasoning...

What I shared isn't what the passage clearly stated above? I'll leave lurkers to decide.

From here on out, I will make every effort not to reply to you on this subject any further.
We don't agree; and my trying to explain election, from my perspective, only seems to confuse you.

Sorry Dave but your confused way of thinking hasn't taken away my clear understanding of this subject and theme. I don't mean to be unkind but if you're going to claim I'm confused I'd suggest you better look in the mirror.

I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you.

And I wish you well too. Have a nice day!

 

[Yeshua1]

There are two types of sanctification, Y1.

One happened at the cross for His elect, the second happens in our lifetime...for the elect.

See my post # 66.

sanctification happens to the saved after salvation, not before it!

 

[Dave G]

sanctification happens to the saved after salvation, not before it!

Do you believe that the Bible teaches "Particular Redemption"?

 

[37818]

That would not be given to him by sanctification, but by regeneration!

Not if regeneration is preceded by faith.

 

[37818]

sanctification happens to the saved after salvation, not before it!

That is a popular interpretation. But according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 sanctification precedes the gospel call. In 1 Peter 1:2 precedes obeying the gospel.

 

[37818]

Unless god grants to us a new heart and gives us ears to hear with, we remain deaf to the Gospel!

That can only happen in sanctification of the work of God's Spirit, not prior to the sanctification of the Spirit.

 

[37818]

I know, but regeneration must occur first....

Not according to the word of God.

 

[37818]

Why would God sanctify first someone who was still a lost sinner and not reconciled back to him yet?

The obedience occurs in sanctification of the Spirit (1 Peter 1:2). As does the gospel call (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

 

[Revmitchell]

That can only happen in sanctification of the work of God's Spirit, not prior to the sanctification of the Spirit.

It happens at the point of salvation When we are regenerated.

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you believe that the Bible teaches "Particular Redemption"?

I believe that Jesus died for the sake of the elect, and that God election of that person will result in them receiving jesus and get saved, but that before that, the sinner is lost and hell bound!