Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
As I have said before, I strongly disagree with many of your views concerning the Bible, how to interpret it correctly, and what it teaches about music that is acceptable to God.
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God's Wisdom versus Earthly, Sensual, and Demonic Wisdom about Instrumental Music
- Thread starter Scripture More Accurately
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It's crazy to some folks and makes no sense.
It's like a pool table, not one thing wrong with having a pool table in your home or playing pool.
But having one in the Church fellowship building is out of the question in our Church.
It's associated with bars and drinking and the things of the world and is not appropriate on the grounds of the public Church.
The same with drums in fellowship, it's the association with the music of the world that our Church rejects and will not let it in.
We draw a clear line in separating from all appearance of the worldly things, as silly as it may sound to some.
It's like a pool table, not one thing wrong with having a pool table in your home or playing pool.
But having one in the Church fellowship building is out of the question in our Church.
It's associated with bars and drinking and the things of the world and is not appropriate on the grounds of the public Church.
The same with drums in fellowship, it's the association with the music of the world that our Church rejects and will not let it in.
We draw a clear line in separating from all appearance of the worldly things, as silly as it may sound to some.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
The world's wisdom is not God's wisdom---it is earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom.
God commands us not to walk in the counsel of the ungodly (Ps. 1:1); because their counsel is earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom, we must not walk in their counsel about instrumental music.
God commands us not to be conformed to the world (Rom. 12:1); because their wisdom is earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom, we must not be conformed to the world concerning instrumental music.
We must heed God's wisdom concerning percussion instruments and their proper uses, and we must categorically reject earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom concerning percussion instruments and their uses.
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Amen Brother, we are 2 peas of the same pod!
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Thanks.
I am not sure that we are exactly the same in our views because my church does use percussion instruments in our services, but we use them sparingly, and we never use instrumental music that is rhythmically dominant, poundingly percussive music that has been copied from evil people who have used such kinds of percussive music to seek contact with evil spirits.
We may be a little more strict in not allowing the percussion sound in, but we are definately of the same old school.
I like to call in walking in the "old paths" a distinct separation from the appearance of the things in this world.
I haven't been to Church in a couple of months with this occasional head spinning from vertigo, that can come on me at anytime.
I can't drive and several from the Church have offered to come by take me, but If I have a hard hit of the vertigo it makes me sick on the stomach and I have lay down. That would be a mess if it happened in Church.
So I'm kinda confined here at home, but hopefully not much longer.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear of this problem. May God grant you full and speedy healing from it.
Thank you, Brother!
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
Simultaneously, to say that these things are allowed at home but not at church can foster the idea that we have a different standard in our homes.
When it is understood why we do certain things that is helpful, but there doesn’t seem to be a thorough way of communicating this to an entire church when you have new members coming in.
It can end up just looking like double standards. I’m not saying drop the standard. Just that it blurs the line of what the standard is for unless someone is willing to figure out why it is there.
The real problem happens when you bring it up. If someone wants to add a billiard table to the church, it has been brought up honestly. But to just go around collecting a list of things that you would not put in a church is over the top. It’s just asking for trouble.
And if you don’t want a pool table, it is easy enough to refuse it on the basis of losing the space for other activities. There doesn’t have to be a moral aspect involved in it at all.
Not being part of your church, I don’t know what exactly is the situation. I’m just speaking generally. This is an area where no situation is the same and will not be the same.
You make some good points, and my Church is not for everyone. I particularly like it because it draws a line and makes the house of God a place separated and different than anything else in your life.
I see it as bringing an order and respect the the Lord, where people meet to honor the Lord.
But it's not do this and do that as in orders and regulations, it's sound Biblical preaching that convicts the heart and brings a reverence to the Lord.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Not at all. Without any biblical warrant, you hold that instrumental music is only a human and an earthly activity. Scripture plainly teaches otherwise and does so explicitly.
You also hold that the Christ's work has done away with the use of musical instruments in divine worship, which is something the Bible does not teach.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Exod. 19:13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.
The Holy Spirit is emphatic in this account that there were no humans allowed to be on the mount, and yet there would be a long sounding of a trumpet (Exod. 19:13).
In that setting, the Spirit repeatedly and explicitly speaks concerning the sounding of a trumpet on this occasion and attests that such a sounding of the trumpet took place (Exod. 19:16, 19; 20:18):
Exod. 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
Exod. 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
Exod. 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
These verses plainly teach us that instrumental music is not just a human activity---no humans were allowed on the mount; therefore, the trumpet that was sounded on this occasion was sounded by a supernatural, non-human being.
Those who teach that making instrumental music is only a human activity do not teach what is true according to Scripture.
The Holy Spirit is emphatic in this account that there were no humans allowed to be on the mount, and yet there would be a long sounding of a trumpet (Exod. 19:13).
In that setting, the Spirit repeatedly and explicitly speaks concerning the sounding of a trumpet on this occasion and attests that such a sounding of the trumpet took place (Exod. 19:16, 19; 20:18):
Exod. 19:16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
Exod. 19:19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
Exod. 20:18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
These verses plainly teach us that instrumental music is not just a human activity---no humans were allowed on the mount; therefore, the trumpet that was sounded on this occasion was sounded by a supernatural, non-human being.
Those who teach that making instrumental music is only a human activity do not teach what is true according to Scripture.
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Okay, if you want to insist that there is demonic music, which you defined in the other thread as anything the devil wants to play himself or wants to be played by others...fine.
Answer this: What is it that Satan savors? What does he set his affections on? Satan sets his affections on the things that be of men. Matthew 16:23. The ben elohim, the sons of God, saw the daughters of men that they were fair. And they lusted after them. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6, Genesis 6:4
In that capacity, I'll agree with your notion that there is demonic music, with the understanding that the devil, lacking any creative power, loves human things and loves perverting them.
If you want to hold to the notion that there are demonic instruments, with the understanding that the devil loves human things and perverting them and lacks any creative power, I'll agree to that notion knowing that instruments did not appear in the earth until humans made them. Genesis 4:21-22
The wisdom that is from below is devilish because it is earthly and sensual, worshiping the creature more than the Creator. Romans 1:25
More accurately, that what you cite as commandments to use musical instruments all come from the OT, which has been cancelled so that the NT in Christ's blood could come into effect. Heb. 10:9
Even under that covenant, instruments were used in the temple service to accompany the animal sacrifices. They weren't used in the synagogues. Only plain singing. And they weren't used in the early church either.
So, you can abandon the idea that God desires, let alone commands, to be worshipped with machines, no matter the degree of expertise of the artificer.
Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Sorry, this understanding does not account for all that Satan and his demons desire. They desire worship, which must only be given to God, and worship is not a human invention:
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
When they pervert worship that is acceptable to God (either by inspiring worship of other things than God or by defiling worship that is directed to God or both), they pervert things that God originated---not what humans originated.
The Bible does not teach that Satan and his demons do not have the power to originate things and practices that are displeasing to God.
For instance, when Nadab and Abihu offered strange fire to God, they did so with wisdom that is not from God that corrupted something that was from God--what things God sovereignly had determined He would accept in such offerings.
The Bible does not teach that there is human wisdom that is separate from divine wisdom that is separate from demonic wisdom. All wisdom that is not God's wisdom is earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom.
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Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
This is a faulty argument from silence. According to this kind of reasoning, there was no singing until after the Flood because Scripture does not mention any humans singing before the Flood, etc. It would also mean that there were no percussion instruments until they are first mentioned after the Flood, etc.
Moreover, Jubal only originated certain ways of handling two instruments---the text does not require holding that Jubal invented those instruments.
Scripture does not teach that humans originated all musical instruments.
In fact, Scripture explicitly says that God ordained humans to make two silver trumpets that He specified that they had to make in a divinely specified way and use and play according to what God---and not humans---specified.
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Scripture More Accurately
Well-Known Member
Not everything that was in the OT has been cancelled in the NT. Many things in the OT were not part of the Old Covenant that has been done away in Christ.
No, musical instruments were not just used "in the temple service to accompany the animal sacrifices."
The NT explicitly speaks of the use of trumpets in synagogues:
Matthew 6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Jesus was not prohibiting all uses of trumpets in synagogues; He only prohibited using them as the hypocrites did in the synagogues. Although what Jesus said in this statement does not definitively establish that they were used in the worship in the synagogues, it does show that there were trumpets used in the synagogues and therefore raises the question of what the righteous did with them in the synagogues.
Most importantly, Jesus taught His disciples to pray that God's will would be done in earth as it is in heaven. Explicit NT statements teach that musical instruments are used in the worship of heaven and that such use of musical instruments was discernible by a godly human to be sounds that were recognizable to him as the playing of musical instruments that he was familiar with.
With heavenly worship as our pattern and with commands to use musical instruments that were not part of the Old Covenant, the use of musical instruments in worship is fully biblically warranted for NT Christians.