Grace: potential or actual

[Amy.G]

That's not what it says. It says to one group it is given to know certain things, and to another it is not given. One group is given a gift, the other is not. You say it's because one group has behaved better than the other, and therefore merited it. God always and ever says one is given something because of election, and not because one has done either good or evil.

Yes that is what it says. There were two groups. One wanted to learn of God, one was self righteous and didn't see their need for salvation. Stop looking at it through Calvinism.

 

[Van]

Reply to Aaron,

So the choice to sin isn't from a corrupt heart? That choice comes from a free and pure heart, and only AFTER the sin is committed one's heart is corrupted?

That's not what Christ said.

I have been waiting a long time for even one Calvinist to not misrepresent what I say and I am still waiting. We are conceived with the "old man" corrupted nature, and therefore we have a hard time not sinning from conception. Our corruption did not begin with our first sin, but Adam's did. And that is exactly what the Bible says, sir.

 

[freeatlast]

So, sin springs from a pure heart, not a corrupt one.

I am just telling you the way it was.
The heart was pure at creation and Adam chose to corrupt it.
We have a choice.

 

[freeatlast]

I have been waiting a long time for even one Calvinist to not misrepresent what I say and I am still waiting. We are conceived with the "old man" corrupted nature, and therefore we have a hard time not sinning from conception. Our corruption did not begin with our first sin, but Adam's did. And that is exactly what the Bible says, sir.

I agree. When some see they are losing the battle they miss-represent what is said. Also you are correct about Adam. He chose to corrupt himself.

 

[Aaron]

Cry all you want. You have no choice but to say sin springs from a pure heart.

 

[Aaron]

I have been waiting a long time for even one Calvinist to not misrepresent what I say and I am still waiting. We are conceived with the "old man" corrupted nature, and therefore we have a hard time not sinning from conception. Our corruption did not begin with our first sin, but Adam's did. And that is exactly what the Bible says, sir.

Christ said a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. You're saying Adam was good till he brought forth evil fruit. Gotta go with Christ on this one . . . sir.

 

[quantumfaith]

Cry all you want. You have no choice but to say sin springs from a pure heart.

Somehow Aaron, don't see that too many of us will be crying over this. If you wish to be content that your position on the matter has it all neatly "tied up", well that is OK.

 

[Amy.G]

Cry all you want. You have no choice but to say sin springs from a pure heart.

Did God create a corrupt man? You seem to be saying that God is the author of Adam's sin.

 

[Amy.G]

Christ said a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit. You're saying Adam was good till he brought forth evil fruit. Gotta go with Christ on this one . . . sir.

Please show where Christ said that Adam was corrupt before he sinned.

 

[Aaron]

I already did. "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit."

 

[freeatlast]

I already did. "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit."

Would you agree that there can be no temptation without the possibility of give into it?

 

[Van]

In Matthew 7:15 and following Christ teaches us how to recognize false prophets. We can recognize them by their fruits. He illustrated this point using the example of a fig tree producing thisles, i.e. people actually teaching godliness will produce fruit, but people teaching deception and misrepresention will produce evil fruit. Adam is no where to be found. Yet those who advocate for Calvinism are undeterred for according to their standards of bible study, ripping verses out of context to support man-made doctrine is stardard.

And in the parallel passage, Luke 6:43 and following again we get the idea of what we say reflecting our heart condition, with out of a heart that treasures goodness come godly sayings and out of a heart that treasures evil comes evil. Again, Adam is no where to be found.

Yet this helter skelter approach to biblical doctrine is advocated by Calvinism's advocates. Go figure

 

[Greektim]

In Matthew 7:15 and following Christ teaches us how to recognize false prophets. We can recognize them by their fruits. He illustrated this point using the example of a fig tree producing thisles, i.e. people actually teaching godliness will produce fruit, but people teaching deception and misrepresention will produce evil fruit. Adam is no where to be found. Yet those who advocate for Calvinism are undeterred for according to their standards of bible study, ripping verses out of context to support man-made doctrine is stardard.

And in the parallel passage, Luke 6:43 and following again we get the idea of what we say reflecting our heart condition, with out of a heart that treasures goodness come godly sayings and out of a heart that treasures evil comes evil. Again, Adam is no where to be found.

Yet this helter skelter approach to biblical doctrine is advocated by Calvinism's advocates. Go figure

This is a fruitless (and gutless) accusation to hurl at a position that does not agree w/ your view. We all believe we have the biblical view (otherwise we would change it as some of us have). And we all believe that our view adheres to the context of Scripture (which is why it is our view). Therefore we all believe that those who dissent or disagree w/ our view must be "ripping verses out of context to support man-made doctrine". However, even if we believe that, it does not help at all to say that above since the same stupid accusation could be hurled right back at you only to accomplish one thing -- pontifical name-calling.

 

[Amy.G]

I already did. "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit."

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


You have ripped a verse out of context. Jesus was talking about false prophets, not Adam.



Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Everything that God made was "very good". This includes Adam since God made him, correct?

Your view has scripture contradicting itself, proving that you are wrong.

 

[Robert Snow]

So, sin springs from a pure heart, not a corrupt one.

Adam's sin came from a bad CHOICE, something we all have the ability to do.

 

[Robert Snow]

Did God create a corrupt man? You seem to be saying that God is the author of Adam's sin.

[snipped - inflammatory]

 

[Van]

Reply to Greektim,

This is a fruitless (and gutless) accusation to hurl at a position that does not agree w/ your view. We all believe we have the biblical view (otherwise we would change it as some of us have). And we all believe that our view adheres to the context of Scripture (which is why it is our view). Therefore we all believe that those who dissent or disagree w/ our view must be "ripping verses out of context to support man-made doctrine". However, even if we believe that, it does not help at all to say that above since the same stupid accusation could be hurled right back at you only to accomplish one thing -- pontifical name-calling.

Here again we see yet another gang attack on my character, saying I am gutless, rather than my position. The problem of granting the possibility that Calvinists could actually believe their view is biblical is that they systemically misrepresent mine, or shift discussion to my character.

I showed that Matthew and Luke were talking about false prophets and not about Adam. For you to claim the quote was not ripped out of context is absurd.

Truth is never stupid.

Folks, no matter how many charges against me personally the Calvinists hurl, pay attention to the content of their posts. They have nothing!

 

[Greektim]

Here again we see yet another gang attack on my character, saying I am gutless, rather than my position. The problem of granting the possibility that Calvinists could actually believe their view is biblical is that they systemically misrepresent mine, or shift discussion to my character.

I showed that Matthew and Luke were talking about false prophets and not about Adam. For you to claim the quote was not ripped out of context is absurd.

Truth is never stupid.

Folks, no matter how many charges against me personally the Calvinists hurl, pay attention to the content of their posts. They have nothing!

Really??? You are going to sit there and say you were misrepresented when just a few words earlier you claim I called you gutless???????? I said your accusation was gutless. If you make your accusations equate to yourself, then I would propose that you have some deeply rooted issues. Otherwise, you should recognize a distinction. If you don't want to be misrepresented, then I would expect you to return the favor. Just sayin'.

 

[Skandelon]

This thread has gotten off topic. Please read the post regarding the rules of this board. Thank you.