JD,
I believe that God's grace ~WAS AND IS~ offered to every person on earth, and that some people do not accept it.
Every single scripture in the bible says that Christ came for the world. NONE of them say that the cross of Calvary was only meant for a few. Not even the precious scriptures people like you take out of context to say, "See, this is predestination so it means he chose this one to live," says, "Christ only died for a small section of the world," and JD - only a small section of the world has listened to Christ.
As to children.
Which is MORE absurd - that God would create men and women who He loved, and decide, before they ever were born, that they will be sent to hell for eternity because for some unknown reason He doesn't even WANT all of them to be saved?
Or that God would create men and women who He loved, and decide to OFFER His love and grace to all of them, even though He knows that some of them will reject that love and continue in their wicked ways?
See - what you and Scott and others keep refusing to admit is that when you teach that God only OFFERS Grace to all, you ARE teaching that God specifically selected and created some JUST to send them to hell.
You can skip, avoid, deny that all you want, but it doesn't change facts.
The fact is: IF an ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL God pre-selects, before He even gives them life, who will be allowed to be saved - by default He is automatically ALSO pre-selecting who He will send to hell.
So you can't say, "God predestined to me be saved, but He didn't predestine that person to go to hell."
You can't have it both ways JD.
The only thing that FITS the personality of God's nature as the bible has made Him out to be is that He offers grace to all men, and then allows some to refuse that offer of grace.
And yes - Of course He knows which ones will love wickedness too much to listen to Him or to accept His offer. That doesn't mean He likes it. Doesn't mean He caused it. Just means He "lets them go."
By your theory - He doesn't LET them go. He plans their demise.
Would YOU actually, before you and your husband even HAD children, sit down and say, "Okay. I think we'll love the first one and the third one, but we're going to withhold our love from the middle child and if he gets into drugs and prostitution and murder and things that's fine. We don't really care if he kills himself or not?"
Or would you - when you HAD 3 children, realize that someone was wrong and say to all three of them, "We love you, PLEASE listen to us, we do NOT want you to die," but - knowing your 2nd child's personality, and knowing that child will NOT listen to you, - continue to offer your love to that child until the child pushes you away to a point that they don't even hear your words of love anymore?
Which is more like God?
Again - My God is Holy - He does not MAKE men sin. Rejection of Christ ~is~ a sin. Ergo - Calvinism teaches that GOD CAUSES MEN TO SIN.
That's what you are teaching JD.
Not one word a single Calvinist has stated has been able to refute that.
You avoid it. You dodge it.
But in the end - you cannot explain it any other way. Either God hates sin, and offers grace and repentance to all men, and some reject God - OR God ~causes~ you to reject Christ because He doesn't even bother to TRY to lead you to Christ.
So yes.
You understand me correctly.
Now - If you want to retract any of the rubbish you folks teach - be my guest, but don't DENY what you teach because you don't like the wording.
There is N
THER EXPLANATION for what you teach.
Either God offers grace to all men or He doesn't.
IF HE DOESN'T .. He is condemning the majority of the world to hell automatically. He is withdrawing any opportunity to repent from them, and He is CAUSING them to commit the only unpardonable sin in the bible - the sin of rejection of Christ because He has not even given them the opportunity to do otherwise.
OR - God calls all men, and men "refuse the truth."
Its as simple as that.
No amount of whining about "That isn't what I meant," changes what you actually are saying.
And believe me, I KNOW this is hard. If you grew up in a church that taught you election and predestination meant God "Sorted you into savaltion and you into hell," like J. K. Rowling's sorting hat in Harry Potter sorts kids into Gryffindor or Slytherine, this is hard, because it means that you MIGHT have been taught something that was wrong. And people would MUCH rather continue teaching what IS wrong than admit their parents MIGHT have been wrong.
However - honestly - I have never met Christian minsiter who graduated from an accredited Christian seminary who taught that was what predestination was - UNTIL THIS BOARD.
I've seen it taught as, "Because God knows your heart, He knows - before you know, - that you will listen. He knows also that Madelyn O'Hare will NOT listen. He still offers her Grace, but He knows she won't accept it."
I've seen it taught as, "God has PRE-DESTINED those who accept Christ to greatness." I predestine that the kids who graduate from high school in the top 10% of their class, and who make a certain grade on their SAT's will get automatic admittance into the college I work for. I have NOT however, gone out and says, "Okay, Susan, you CAN be in the top 10% and you CAN earn a perfect SAT." God's predestination was not that you BECOME saved, but that when you ARE saved - you will be a child of God.
The elect in Christ are not "people who are allowed to hear grace," the elect in Christ are people who heard the call and responded.
But - I know that nothing - I seriously doubt even an appearance by Michael the Archangel, would change your mind.
For some reason you NEED, despreately, to blame it all on God.
That's the part of it I don't get.
Do you want an excuse not to wittness to the worst side of society? So you can write them off as, "Well, God didn't want them saved anyway?"
Do you want an excuse for your own sin? "I can't help it. Nothing at all ever happens unless God planned for it to happen, so if I kill my neighbor, I shouldn't feel guilty. It was part of God's master plan that I don't understand."
Do you want to feel special? "I'm not saved because I heard the same call the world hears and responded, I'm saved because God WANTED me and he didn't want those people."
I mean seriously - why do you cling so strongly and so hard to "God only wants to save part of the world?" When the scripture says over and over and over that Christ died for the world.
And don't, PLEASE don't, give me that nonsense about "I cling to it because that's what the bible says," because - you taking 2 passages out of context does NOT outweigh an entire bible full of a God that says He loves His creation and desires that His creation repent and that He WANTS to save them.
Without freewill - either man would not even NEED forgiveness - because it would all really be God's fault - OR man would never sin.
Since we DO sin, and since I HOPE you agree God didn't TELL us to sin - I think its safe to assume that God DOES allow us to make our own stupid mistakes. He just loved us enough to provide forgiveness for them.
