Guns and the Church

[Revmitchell]

Boys also do not have the strength to slay giants. Yet David did because God was with him just as He was with David with the lion and the bear.

Calling David a liar does not support the idiotic things said about people who carry in churches. The lengths people go to is just nuts around here sometimes.

 

[Darrell C]

You have got to be kidding Craig, David was "a man of blood", a warrior who killed not only bears and lions but the human enemies of God. He began his terror campaign against the enemies of God by killing Goliath with a Hebrew style slingshot. You do believe that portion of scripture is not an exaggeration don't you?

HankD

I will just interject something regarding the above: do we not see that because David was a man of blood that this limited what he could do?

And I will not say how he was limited, just curious if anyone can say why.

So again we could say that while bloodshed can be seen to be commanded of God at times, I think we make a mistake if we neglect that when that is the case, it is commanded by God. We don't take the initiative ourselves.

So again I see the principle of every man being convinced in his own mind, and that both sides have merit, which should allow for understanding from both sides.

And sorry, Hank, I didn't see your post until just now, and will get to that when I have more time.


God bless.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Craig we do know that David was a warrior and the other things you brought up because the word of God plainly declares it, however you do not know for sure that David lied about the bear and the lion incident. You may very well be bearing a false witness just because you don't think it was possible. Was not Jehovah the same God as Samson's God? Samson who is also reported in the word as one who was less than perfect (as we also).

One undeniable thing David also did was to protect the people of God from the enemies of God which is presumably what this series of posts is all about howbeit in the church age.

There are others mentioned in the Bible who had a better personal report in the word of God than David who also defended the people of God from the nations that God had given to them to conquer e.g. Joshua and Caleb for instance.

HankD

Hank, thank you for this refreshingly polite post!

Beginning with Judges 14:6, the Bible (not David talking to Saul) tells us repeatedly of Samson’s great and supernatural strength and of the exploits that he accomplished using his great strength. The Bible tells absolutely nothing of the sort about David. But some will ask, “How about the tens of thousands of men that the Bible says that David killed?” The answer is that the Bible does not say that David killed thousands of men, the Bible says,

1 Sam. 29:5. Is this not David, of whom they sing to one another in dances,
“Saul has killed his thousands,
and David his ten thousands’?” (NRSV)

The Bible does not say that the words in this song were true, and we have no biblical accounts that document the accuracy of the words in this song. Indeed, the Bible portrays David’s physical strength and abilities of that of an average man—or even less! Most certainly Saul was not impressed by David’s stature! Therefore, the Bible neither says nor implies that David had the ability to catch lions and bears by the jaws, strike them down, and kill them, and one would be very hard pressed to prove that any man is anatomically and physiologically cable of such a feat. The reasonable and fair conclusion is that David lied to Saul.

However, all of this is irrelevant to the issue of Christians taking a gun with them when they go to church because Christians live under a covenant with God that is vastly different from the covenant under which David, Samson, Joshua, and Caleb lived. The behavior that was acceptable and even commanded under to Old Covenant was hugely different from the behavior that is acceptable and even commanded under to New Covenant.

For those persons living under the old covenant we read,

Numbers 31:17. “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.”

Deut. 2:33. “The LORD our God delivered him over to us, and we defeated him with his sons and all his people.
34. “So we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor.”

Psalms 137:9. How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock.

Isa. 13:9. Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it.10. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.11. Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.12. I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold And mankind than the gold of Ophir.13. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger.14. And it will be that like a hunted gazelle, Or like sheep with none to gather them, They will each turn to his own people, And each one flee to his own land.15. Anyone who is found will be thrust through, And anyone who is captured will fall by the sword.16. Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces Before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished.17. Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them, Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.18. And their bows will mow down the young men, They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, Nor will their eye pity children. (NASB, 1995)

Zechariah 13:7. “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate,” Declares the LORD of hosts. “Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones.”

For those persons living under the old covenant we read,

4. “I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5. “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
6. “Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God.
7. “Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
8. “And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God;
9. but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.”


(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)

 

[HankD]

Hank, thank you for this refreshingly polite post!

Beginning with Judges 14:6, the Bible (not David talking to Saul) tells us repeatedly of Samson’s great and supernatural strength and of the exploits that he accomplished using his great strength. The Bible tells absolutely nothing of the sort about David. But some will ask, “How about the tens of thousands of men that the Bible says that David killed?” The answer is that the Bible does not say that David killed thousands of men, the Bible says,

1 Sam. 29:5. Is this not David, of whom they sing to one another in dances,
“Saul has killed his thousands,
and David his ten thousands’?” (NRSV)

The Bible does not say that the words in this song were true, and we have no biblical accounts that document the accuracy of the words in this song. Indeed, the Bible portrays David’s physical strength and abilities of that of an average man—or even less! Most certainly Saul was not impressed by David’s stature! Therefore, the Bible neither says nor implies that David had the ability to catch lions and bears by the jaws, strike them down, and kill them, and one would be very hard pressed to prove that any man is anatomically and physiologically cable of such a feat. The reasonable and fair conclusion is that David lied to Saul.

However, all of this is irrelevant to the issue of Christians taking a gun with them when they go to church because Christians live under a covenant with God that is vastly different from the covenant under which David, Samson, Joshua, and Caleb lived. The behavior that was acceptable and even commanded under to Old Covenant was hugely different from the behavior that is acceptable and even commanded under to New Covenant.

For those persons living under the old covenant we read,

Numbers 31:17. “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.”

Deut. 2:33. “The LORD our God delivered him over to us, and we defeated him with his sons and all his people.
34. “So we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor.”

Psalms 137:9. How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock.

Isa. 13:9. Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it.10. For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.11. Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.12. I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold And mankind than the gold of Ophir.13. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger.14. And it will be that like a hunted gazelle, Or like sheep with none to gather them, They will each turn to his own people, And each one flee to his own land.15. Anyone who is found will be thrust through, And anyone who is captured will fall by the sword.16. Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces Before their eyes; Their houses will be plundered And their wives ravished.17. Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them, Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold.18. And their bows will mow down the young men, They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb, Nor will their eye pity children. (NASB, 1995)

Zechariah 13:7. “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, And against the man, My Associate,” Declares the LORD of hosts. “Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; And I will turn My hand against the little ones.”

For those persons living under the old covenant we read,

4. “I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do.
5. “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
6. “Are not five sparrows sold for two cents? Yet not one of them is forgotten before God.
7. “Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
8. “And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God;
9. but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.”


(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995, unless otherwise noted)

I realize the difference in the covenants however scripture shows that violence against evil doers has been appointed by God from Genesis through the NT.

Genesis 9
5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

So Craig what do you think - was it wrong for Christians to go to war against Hitler?

Also, personally I disagree with your assessment - though his statements are recorded in a historical narrative in the word of God, I absolutely do not believe David lied about killing a lion and a bear to save one of the flock.

He probably knocked him out with a stone from his sling then went over grabbed his beard to stretch out his neck and beheaded him just as he would do to Goliath.

How can we believe that David went after this giant of a man with his faith, courage and bravery based upon a lie?

HankD

 

[Don]

Hank - thanks. This is the first chance I've had today to catch up, and you've pretty much said everything I would have responded with.

Craig - the only thing I would add to Hank's (and others) comments is this: Daniel should not have survived the lion's den. Samson should not have been able to do the feats he performed. Moses, a murderer, should not have been able to lead God's people. Paul, an accessory to murder and by his own admission a persecuter of Christians, should not have become the apostle to the Gentiles. YET, scripture tells us each of these things were possible with and through God.

Scripture records David's words about killing a lion and a bear; scripture does not indicate that David was lying about this. There's nothing in scripture that refutes David's claim.

Is it possible David was exaggerating? Yes, because scripture doesn't say one way or another.

Is it possible David actually killed a lion and a bear to protect a flock of sheep? Look again at Moses, Paul, Samson, Daniel, and oh-so-many others; so YES, it's possible David was able to do it with and through God.

-----
Darrell has it right. As many times as this subject has come up on this board in the 10+ years I've been around here, no one's ever been able to convince "the other side" to change their minds. But that's the beauty of one of our basic Baptist tenets, that of soul liberty - we have the liberty to choose what our conscience dictates, and are responsible to no one else but God.

-----
edited to add: My bad. Looking at my own profile, it's 15+ years that I've been lurking around here....

 

[Darrell C]

I suppose I have been affected by my tour of duty in the US Air Force during the 60's. I was stationed on the now defunct (heaven help us) Ballistic Missile Early Warning System (BMEWS). This was a line of defense of which my sector went from upstate New York to Greenland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_Missile_Early_Warning_System

We watched and waited for the imminent thermo-nuclear bombing of America and were told that if we were commanded to push a button we would do so without asking any questions. We didn't know if after we pushed the button it was a real attack or not or if our own defenses would be triggered or not.

One Russian thermo nuclear device had the power of 60 megatons of TNT and would blow a crater in the earth about 30 miles across, enough to annihilate all the burrows of NY City. the Russians terrified the planet by publicly testing these weapons from hell. The power of the stars had appeared upon the earth.

I was saved while in the service and even after being saved I had no compulsion about "pushing a button" whether in defense or retaliation of my beloved country. Yes I had a preliminary struggle with the idea of killing anybody. However we are to protect the innocent as commanded by God. Every soldier and police officer understands this. Perhaps not all of them knowing it is God's decree.

Romans 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


HankD

Just wanted to say great post, and thanks for sharing that.

I also wanted to comment in regards to Paul's teaching in Romans, which clearly distinguishes the higher powers from the Body of Christ. And while I am all for as having as many Christians in the Military and Police Force, any branch of Law Enforcement, again we have to understand that there will be some who have a conscience that looks at these things from one viewpoint, and others that take an opposing view.

And that is not a bad thing, because I look at it as it brings a balance to the Body, where both perspectives might make one level head.

As far as being a position where I had a duty to detonate forces that would, without question, impact innocents, not sure I would maintain that position. When it comes to warfare, I think it better that we go toe-to-toe, rather than relying on weapons of mass destruction. That doesn't mean I don't think we should have them if the other guy has them, lol, because it is a deterrent. And I think our country has shown that when it comes to war, we are not afraid to put boots on the ground.

Last thing I will mention: I think it should be absolutely mandatory that any President we elect to have served in the Military himself. Better to have someone who has been in the ranks deploying troops, that he has an understanding of what it means to have served. That is one of the things I regret from my youth, not having joined.


God bless.

 

[corndogggy]

Jesus said: “But now, whoever has a purse, let him take it, and likewise a wallet. Whoever has none, let him sell his cloak, and buy a sword." Luke 22:36.

Jesus also stopped them from getting more and said "it is enough!" when he found out that they had two swords between what, twelve untrained people, which would be woefully inadequate for defense purposes, no? He even went on to say exactly why he wanted them, he was trying to fulfill a prophecy. This passage is only convenient if you stop where you did.

 

[corndogggy]

Florida (where it's legal)

I asked Pastor privately for permission to carry in the church (with a valid license, and responsibly). He said he doesn't care.

A month later, somehow a deacon found out; a Vietnam vet who, due to his life story, is now scared of guns.

This church has no signs posted barring the practice.

Never ask for permission. Concealed means concealed. If it's legal and there's nothing saying you can't do it, then it's none of anybody's business. This was the biggest mistake here. Nothing good can ever come from doing this.

 

[corndogggy]

My opinion on the matter in general is that it's a dumb idea. Reasons being:

1. I've carried in church, and have found that you can spend quite a bit of time worrying about your gun rather than the service. Bible school study circle where Billy Bob is beside you, Susan Snee is on the other side, and the muzzle is pointed right at Mary Jane's pelvic area from the other side of the circle? Yeah, whether you are printing or not can often enter your mind, as it probably should when carrying concealed. Church is not the place for this.

2. It illustrates a sheep dog hero fantasy. Notice that the people who carry typically aren't worried about themselves, they always want to be the protector of everybody else. This is not the attitude of a humble servant and repentant sinner, it's the longing to be a hero which is constantly on their minds. Church is not the place for this.

3. Bigger problem with the hero mentality is that it doesn't really work that way in reality. What happens is that when a guy enters a crowd and good guys try to shoot him, innocent people get shot by the would-be good guy. Sorry but that's exactly how it is, even among trained cops. I'm a shooter so don't argue that I'm a gun hating liberal for saying this. It's just how it is most of the time. The fantasy is that somebody will whip out their gun and the good guy will be sly about drawing then calmly put a well placed round or four into the bad guy before he can hurt anybody. Well, good luck with that. It's going to be chaos and confusion and nothing short of a sheer miracle if you get a clean shot. In the meantime, you're the guy holding the gun while shots are going off.

4. If you were really worried about it, you'd have posts set up where somebody at the back of the church was guarding the entrance. This is exactly why the Colorado shooter was stopped. The guy never had a chance to imbed himself into the crowd, he was stopped near the entrance. Which, is how it should be. Recently a guy walked into church with an AR and was able to imbed himself into the crowd. I'm sorry, but at that point it is simply too late, yet this is what concealed carry guys actually plan on. Makes no sense.

 

[corndogggy]

Of course it is. Rolleyes
In Britain in 2012 there were 530 murders, which is appalling. Britain has about one fifth the population of the USA, so to get a comparison you need to multiply by 5, making 2,650.
The best figure I could get on line for the USA is 13,500 which is one Vietnam every four years or so. The fact that the murder rate is worse in various banana republics does not make the USA figure either more or less.
Britain is not a more righteous nation than the USA, far from it! Other crime stats in Britain are awful. If guns were readily available in Britain our murder rate would be sky-high. But, praise God, they aren't.

1. You have to realize that Britain is a weird deal, they are desperate to keep numbers low and do weird things to do this. For example, if the murderer was never caught, it is not counted in the official numbers! Seriously, if 10 people get killed by a different person, and 3 of those 10 killers get caught, then they have 3 homicides.

2. You have to realize that a HUGE chunk of that is inner city black on black crime that was done with cheap pistols that are on nobody's radar to ban. It's not Billy Bob the gun loving redneck down the road who has lots of nice rifles. Yet, Billy Bob along with his rifles is what is getting blamed.

 

[Rob_BW]

2. It illustrates a sheep dog hero fantasy. Notice that the people who carry typically aren't worried about themselves, they always want to be the protector of everybody else. This is not the attitude of a humble servant and repentant sinner, it's the longing to be a hero which is constantly on their minds. Church is not the place for this.

3. Bigger problem with the hero mentality is that it doesn't really work that way in reality. What happens is that when a guy enters a crowd and good guys try to shoot him, innocent people get shot by the would-be good guy. Sorry but that's exactly how it is, even among trained cops. I'm a shooter so don't argue that I'm a gun hating liberal for saying this. It's just how it is most of the time. The fantasy is that somebody will whip out their gun and the good guy will be sly about drawing then calmly put a well placed round or four into the bad guy before he can hurt anybody. Well, good luck with that. It's going to be chaos and confusion and nothing short of a sheer miracle if you get a clean shot. In the meantime, you're the guy holding the gun while shots are going off.

Ugh, here we go again.

 

[corndogggy]

If I attended a church in Northern Nigeria or some parts of Pakistan, it might be advisable for the brethren to mount an armed guard outside the church during the services if (and only if) the police were not prepared to give protection. In a civilized society weapons owned by civilians are unnecessary and lead to bloodshed, whether accidental or purposeful. To carry guns inside a church is an appalling witness.

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Sometimes many many minutes. Counting on the police for protection is about the most naive thing you can do. They're primarily there to clean up the mess and collect ticket revenue.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1. You have to realize that Britain is a weird deal, they are desperate to keep numbers low and do weird things to do this. For example, if the murderer was never caught, it is not counted in the official numbers! Seriously, if 10 people get killed by a different person, and 3 of those 10 killers get caught, then they have 3 homicides.

Yeah right! Where did you get this gem of information? NRA news?

 

[TCassidy]

1. I've carried in church, and have found that you can spend quite a bit of time worrying about your gun rather than the service. Bible school study circle where Billy Bob is beside you, Susan Snee is on the other side, and the muzzle is pointed right at Mary Jane's pelvic area from the other side of the circle? Yeah, whether you are printing or not can often enter your mind, as it probably should when carrying concealed. Church is not the place for this.

Then you need to buy some good equipment and learn to dress properly. If your holster causes the muzzle to point at anyone you need to get a new holster. If your clothing is insufficient to prevent printing you need to get different clothing.

2. It illustrates a sheep dog hero fantasy. Notice that the people who carry typically aren't worried about themselves, they always want to be the protector of everybody else. This is not the attitude of a humble servant and repentant sinner, it's the longing to be a hero which is constantly on their minds. Church is not the place for this.

If you are living in a "sheep dog fantasy" world I agree, you probably shouldn't be carrying.

3. Bigger problem with the hero mentality is that it doesn't really work that way in reality. What happens is that when a guy enters a crowd and good guys try to shoot him, innocent people get shot by the would-be good guy. Sorry but that's exactly how it is, even among trained cops. I'm a shooter so don't argue that I'm a gun hating liberal for saying this. It's just how it is most of the time. The fantasy is that somebody will whip out their gun and the good guy will be sly about drawing then calmly put a well placed round or four into the bad guy before he can hurt anybody. Well, good luck with that. It's going to be chaos and confusion and nothing short of a sheer miracle if you get a clean shot. In the meantime, you're the guy holding the gun while shots are going off.

You seem to have forgotten the basic rules.

1. Every gun is loaded.
2. Identify your target. Including what is in front of, beside, and behind your target.
3. Muzzle discipline. Never point a firearm at anyone or anything you are not prepared to kill or destroy.
4. Keep you finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire. (In other words, you have practiced all of the above.)

4. If you were really worried about it, you'd have posts set up where somebody at the back of the church was guarding the entrance. This is exactly why the Colorado shooter was stopped. The guy never had a chance to imbed himself into the crowd, he was stopped near the entrance. Which, is how it should be. Recently a guy walked into church with an AR and was able to imbed himself into the crowd. I'm sorry, but at that point it is simply too late, yet

I don't worry about anything. I am simply prepared.

I carry car insurance but don't worry about being in an accident. But if I am I am prepared.

I carry a fire extinguisher in my car. I don't worry about a fire but if one breaks out I am prepared.

I carry health insurance. I don't worry about my health but if something happens I am prepared.

I carry a gun. I don't worry about being assaulted or robbed, but if it happens I am prepared.

this is what concealed carry guys actually plan on. Makes no sense.

Really? And how do you know that? How long have you trained those who conceal carry? How long have you been part of the security team at your church? How do you know what we plan?

The only thing that makes no sense is your comments!

 

[corndogggy]

Yeah right! Where did you get this gem of information? NRA news?

Actually that came straight from the UK Parliament:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/95ap25.htm

Notice #35 towards the bottom.

"Since 1967, homicide figures for England and Wales have been adjusted to exclude any cases which do not result in conviction"

This is common knowledge and something you should be familiar with if you're going to act like this.

 

[corndogggy]

Then you need to buy some good equipment and learn to dress properly. If your holster causes the muzzle to point at anyone you need to get a new holster. If your clothing is insufficient to prevent printing you need to get different clothing.

One of the least obvious ways to carry concealed is a .38 stubnose in a wallet type holster in the front pocket, especially when standing up. In most circumstances it works quite well and is quite safe and quite accessible. This isn't exactly a unique issue to a 38 though, you name a way to carry concealed and there will be some flaw about it short of wearing a sport coat everywhere. I'm sure yours is flawless though.

You seem to have forgotten the basic rules.

1. Every gun is loaded.
2. Identify your target. Including what is in front of, beside, and behind your target.

Actually if you read my comments, I was concerned about having a clean shot, which coincides to #2. So, no.

I carry a gun. I don't worry about being assaulted or robbed, but if it happens I am prepared.

This would be a perfectly legit reason to carry. One that is just way down on the list in terms of carrying at church. The risk (and seeming fantasy to some extent) there is that you're sitting in the middle of a service and suddenly somebody walks in and starts shooting the place up, and somehow you're going to stop them and protect everybody.

Really? And how do you know that? How long have you trained those who conceal carry? How long have you been part of the security team at your church? How do you know what we plan?

Do you actually think that this is a unique conversation? Think we're talking about a ground breaking new idea do you?

This subject comes up over and over. And over. For years, and years. Church forums, every gun forum out there, there's A LOT of chatter on this subject out there, has been discussed ad nauseam. Yes if you pay attention, this seems to be a recurring theme.

But, by all means Mr. Tactical, let's all hear your plan.

 

[Revmitchell]

Well contrary to the nay sayers who do not seem to know what they are talking about we will be putting together a security team. It will have two layers. The first will be the primary security team which will carry concealed, will have about four men on it, and they will be primarily concerned for any intruder who intends to cause harm. They will already have training and will receive ongoing training from local law enforcement.

We will have a second layer of security which will be the ushers. They will not be carrying and their primary concern will be leading the congregation out of the sanctuary safely. We will have several zones with specific duties in each zone. These men will also be trained and all of the security will go through scenario training also.

Further they will all be trained in CPR, first aid, and with the heart thingamabob on the wall. (brain lock today can think of its name.)

 

[TCassidy]

I'm sure yours is flawless though.

I have been carrying for over 50 years and have never had a problem.

Actually if you read my comments, I was concerned about having a clean shot, which coincides to #2. So, no.

Why do you think you need a shot at all? You obviously didn't read my post above.

This would be a perfectly legit reason to carry. One that is just way down on the list in terms of carrying at church.

Then you need to revise your list.

The risk (and seeming fantasy to some extent) there is that you're sitting in the middle of a service and suddenly somebody walks in and starts shooting the place up, and somehow you're going to stop them and protect everybody.

Again, if that is what you fantasize about during church you probably shouldn't be carrying.

Do you actually think that this is a unique conversation? Think we're talking about a ground breaking new idea do you?

No, this is a fairly common subject when it comes to gun ownership and carrying, "I am too incompetent and irresponsible to be trusted with a gun so you must be too." "If I were in that situation I would do something stupid so you would too."

This subject comes up over and over. And over. For years, and years. Church forums, every gun forum out there, there's A LOT of chatter on this subject out there, has been discussed ad nauseam. Yes if you pay attention, this seems to be a recurring theme.

Yes, it is. See my above comment.

But, by all means Mr. Tactical, let's all hear your plan.

I already posted it, above. Here it is again:

---------------------------

I can't help but think those commenting on the thread who have not received extensive training in firearms and tactics may be laboring under a misconception.

The purpose of carrying a firearm is not to "play cop" or to form some sort of para-military organization and administer some sort of street justice.

My primary responsibility is the safety of my loved ones. My first priority in the (hopefully) unlikely event of an active shooter in church, or in HEB (for those non-Texans that is the largest supermarket chain in Texas) or any other pubic venue, is to cover and escape.

My first actions would be to acquire sufficient situational awareness to have planned in my head the best means of egress from the active kill zone. (This is also important in the event of a fire, hurricane, tornado, flood, etc. Have a plan to get safely out of the building but being aware of the situation to the point you don't run into even more danger outside.)

I would then cover my wife with both my firearm and my body protecting her, and guide her in escaping the kill zone.

If others of my family were present that "cover and escape" action would be, as much as humanly possible, extended to them (however, my son-in-law is retired military after 24 years and is as capable as I am in assuming such a protector role, and just as heavily armed).

If, after getting my family to safety, if possible, I might attempt to help others to cover and escape. But their protection is not my primary responsibility. Their protection is their responsibility. If they have failed to shoulder that burden I will do what I can but my family is my first priority.

 

[corndogggy]

Boys also do not have the strength to slay giants. Yet David did because God was with him just as He was with David with the lion and the bear.

Calling David a liar does not support the idiotic things said about people who carry in churches. The lengths people go to is just nuts around here sometimes.

Not entirely sure why we are going to use David as an example of how we should act towards enemies.

David sawed people in half, hacked them up with axes, burned them to death in kilns, killed 200 guys for the heck of it and cut the foreskin off their privates to offer as a dowry of sorts, cut the hands and feet off of would-be assassins and hung the bodies over a pool, and apparently participated in some human sacrifice.

By all means, let's consider "What Would David Do?"

1 Chronicles 20:3
2 Samuel 12:31
1 Samuel 18:25
2 Samuel 4:12
2 Samuel 21:16

 

[Revmitchell]

Not entirely sure why we are going to use David as an example

You would have to go back and read the context of my response.