Hal Lindsey a False Prophet?

[Mel Miller]

Correction to Me4Him's View:

I think the following paragraph should be corrected:

Before we can discuss the time for the First
Resurrection, we need to determine when it is
that God STARTS dealing with Israel and STOPS
dealing with the Church. Is 1948 the date to
determine that 2018 begins God's "dealings"
with Israel (as Me4Him believes)?

It should be 2011 for the Rapture in this
view, i.e., 2018 minus 7.

But the setting of dates is still the wrong
way to go.
Mel

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by EdSutton:

Second, I ask one again, "What makes one equivocate "states" with "nations" in Biblical terminology? See Gen. 11. []

Ge 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Ge 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

I'm not "exactly" sure of what your referrence is too???? []

My bad! I meant to say Genesis 10, specifically verse 32 which states:
"32 These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood."
Sorry for the confusion!

Ge 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

Eze 39:1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

These generations are where the present day people of Russia, Syria, Iran, Germany, and I don't remember the others, all originated, and they are the ones who attack Israel during the trib.

Third, as I cannot lay my hands on my concordance, "Where does it say that a day is a thousand years?" []

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Uh, aren't you overlooking just one small word, here? That little word "as"? Unless my English is failing me, doesn't that make it a simile?

Meaning it's comparing two unlike things? Or in other words, a picture? Nowhere does Scripture say you can 'plug in' this. It takes a preconceived theological notion to do so!

Then why is it we should BE NOT IGNORANT OF THIS ONE THING????

"PLUG IT IN" from Genesis to Revelations, according to the chronology given in scripture and see what you get???

This leads me to the last point. This is purely eisogesis, and speculation. Interesting? Yes! Biblical doctrine? Hardly! And your eisogesis is no better or no worse than mine. Either, in this context, is still exactly that. Which is also one of the reasons of much of the problem with Hal Lindsey and some of these things that have been here talked about. They are merely that, speculation.
In His grace,
Ed

Evidently you don't understand that God meant "exactly" what he said;

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest:

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Another "SEVENTH DAY" of Rest, the MK, how long is the 7th day, 1000 years??, how long would the other six days be???

You're only seeing one verse, out of context of the "Whole" Bible.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Correction to Me4Him's View:

I think the following paragraph should be corrected:

Before we can discuss the time for the First
Resurrection, we need to determine when it is
that God STARTS dealing with Israel and STOPS
dealing with the Church. Is 1948 the date to
determine that 2018 begins God's "dealings"
with Israel (as Me4Him believes)?

It should be 2011 for the Rapture in this
view, i.e., 2018 minus 7.

But the setting of dates is still the wrong
way to go.
Mel

2011-2012, OR BEFORE for the rapture.

Jesus only said we couldn't know the "DAY AND HOUR", he didn't mention the "WEEK", the "MONTH" or even the "YEAR", why does folks read things into scripture that is not there???

It's not my prophecy that the "Valley of the Bones" or "HER BRANCH" is to be the "LAST GENERATION",

and if God declared six days of work, then "HER BRANCH" can only be restored "WITHIN" a generation of the end of the six days, 1948 is well within that time frame, a question Jesus refused to answer for the disciple.

2011-2012 to 2018 is "Early in the morning" of the "THIRD DAY", which is a 1000 years long.

The first 5 events in the NT occurred on the "EXACT DATES" given for their corresponding "Feast days" in the OT,

Can any tell me why the rapture shouldn't also occur during it's corresponding feast dates, the ten day Feast of trumpets, end of Sept-Oct, I just don't know which "DAY" or which "HOUR".


The point is this, people who understand the scripture will know when the rapture is near, they won't be "in the dark".

Am 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

You asked:
"why does folks read things into scripture that is not there???
_______________________________________________
You do not know for sure that the last generation began in 1948. Many think it should
start with 1967 when Jerusalem was captured.
In any case, you are wrong to preset the time!
______________________________________________
I do believe the Rapture will occur at the end of the 15 days of the Feast of Trumpets ... for the 15th Day is the Feast of Tabernacles when
the Lamb will present the "firstfruit" of the
Endtime harvest unto God ... the 144,000 Jews.

That will be the last day ... the day on which
Jesus promised to "raise up every believer; yes,
all believers because that is His Father's will".

It is the only day on which He will "gather the
elect from earth to heaven and then, while the
tribes of earth mourn, He will send the angels
to gather these elect out of all the extremities
of the heavenS"!! John 6:38-40; Mark 13:27;
Matt.24:31.

Paul says, "God will bring ALL the dead in Christ WITH Jesus and, by the word of the Lord,
the dead in Christ will rise up first (includes
Trib-Martyrs) and then those who are alive and
remain (Trib-Survivors) will be caught up to
meet them in the air". I Thess.4:13-17.

That is the "comfort" by which every Trib-Saint
will be able to "overcome to the end so that
they may sit on thrones and reign with Christ".
The Martyrs will do even better ... they will
"serve God in heaven's Temple for 1000 years"!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Ed Edwards]

Matthew 24:36 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ )

Now concerning that day and hour no one knows--neither
the angels in heaven, nor the Son --except the Father only.

'day' means 'the appropriate time'
'hour' means 'the appropriate time'

If it had used 'month' it would have meant 'the appropriate time'.
If it had used 'year' it would have meant 'the appropriate time'.

Seven years after the pretribulation rapture1 the
Glorious Return of Jesus, the resurrection1 will occur.
The date of the resurrection1 is KNOWN, given the
pretribulation rapture1. What we don't know is the
time (Millinnium, Century, Decade, Year, Month, Fortnight,
Week, Day, Hour, Minute, Second, Milli-second, etc)
of the pretribulation rapture1.

 

[Mel Miller]

Ed,

I find no evidence of dual resurrections for
Believers. Jesus said He will "raise up ALL
Believers on the last day; He will gather the
Elect from earth to heaven and send the angels
to gather them out of all extremities of the
heavenS".

One DAY for the resurrction of ALL Believers.
The Lamb will rescue th 144,000 and call up
the Two Witnesses from earth on that very Day!

Simple and glorious!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Ed,

I find no evidence of dual resurrections for
Believers. Jesus said He will "raise up ALL
Believers on the last day;

Simple and glorious!!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

Yes it is, Just one problem, the church is rapture "BEFORE" the trib begin, those who die because of Jesus in the trib are still alive, and still unsaved at the time of the rapture.

Now, when Jesus returns, both the rapture church and those killed during the trib will be "Resurrected", (come with Jesus) which is the "First Resurrection", not the "second resurrection",

The rapture IS NOT a "resurrection", they're not "back on earth", but go directly to heaven.

The "Second Resurrection" is at the GWT, all unsaved dead are "resurrected" to stand Judgment, or "Second Death".

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,

The "minuet details" will "trip you up" in scripture, especially the "precise definition" of words.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The date of the resurrection1 is KNOWN, given the
pretribulation rapture1. What we don't know is the
time (Millinnium, Century, Decade, Year, Month, Fortnight,
Week, Day, Hour, Minute, Second, Milli-second, etc)
of the pretribulation rapture1.

Man only reaps what he sows, the future isn't "set in stone", if the whole world repented/believed in Jesus, God would cancel the trib.

This opens the "door" for the rapture to occur at any time since Jesus came, suppose the Jews had not rejected Jesus, how much different would this world be today??

However, through his "Foreknowledge" God knew what choices man would make and God's law requires him to respond accordingly, even refusing to change the law so Jesus wouldn't have to die. (if possible, let this cup pass from me)

If Jesus's statement is understood in the context that the timing of the rapture is not set in stone by the Sovereign will of God, but according to man sowing and the necessity of God to respond accordingly, the rapture could have occurred at any time God chose since Jesus came.

Man sows, God responds accordingly, that the Gospel.

Ga 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;

but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

But God's "foreknowledge" tells us only a "FEW" sow to the spirit and only those "FEW" are chosen, the trib is still in the world's future.

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

There is no scripture anywhere that says Jesus
will take the Church to heaven at the Rapture!

The "place that Jesus has gone to prepare" will
be inhabited by the Tribulation Martyrs. The
best reward that "survivors to the End" will
receive is to "sit on thrones and rule with
Christ on the Earth".

That promise of ruling on the earth applies to
the members of the Church who "overcome to the
End". You have no evidence that the END occurs
before the tribulation or that "the Church will
be taken to heaven" ... except for the Martyrs
who alone will "serve God in heaven for 1000
years". Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4.
Mel
.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Me4Him,

There is no scripture anywhere that says Jesus
will take the Church to heaven at the Rapture!

The "place that Jesus has gone to prepare" will
be inhabited by the Tribulation Martyrs. The
best reward that "survivors to the End" will
receive is to "sit on thrones and rule with
Christ on the Earth".

That promise of ruling on the earth applies to
the members of the Church who "overcome to the
End". You have no evidence that the END occurs
before the tribulation or that "the Church will
be taken to heaven" ... except for the Martyrs
who alone will "serve God in heaven for 1000
years". Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4.
Mel
.

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,


When the scripture are read with "preconceived" notions/ideas about what the scripture should mean, people arrive at some pretty silly, even "Dumb" interpretations of scripture.

If God is married to Israel, then God made a wedding for his son, don't ya think there would have to be "TWO BRIDES", "TWO WEDDINGS???

Israel was "Invited" to the "Lamb's wedding supper", but refuse to come.

Mt 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

The "TRINITY" isn't just an "Adjective" to describe God, it's also an "INTERPRETER" of
scripture.

 

[johnp.]

The "TRINITY" isn't just an "Adjective" to describe God, it's also an "INTERPRETER" of scripture.

Respect man, it's name is God.

john.

 

[Mel Miller]

Me4Him,

Your parable from Matt.22 has no reference to
the future wedding supper of the Lamb. Your following quote has not yet been fulfilled:
_____________________________________________
"Israel was Invited to the Lamb's wedding supper, but refused to come".
_____________________________________________

The Lamb's Supper, contrary to your chart,
does not take place in heaven. It takes place
on the earth and ALL Israel will be "blessed
by having been called to the supper". Rev.19:9.

The supper takes place on earth after Christ
comes to "redeem" all of the houses of Israel
and Judah when God remembers their sin no
more and restores them as a people of His!

On the earth Israel will be blessed; but
Israel will not share heaven with the Bride
of the Lamb. Israel can only "inherit the
eternal kingdom on the earth". Matt.25:32-34.

Again, when ALL Israel is "redeemed", they will
be called to the wedding supper of the Bride
of the Lamb and their "kingdom" on earth will
be restored. Luke 21:28,31.

Do you accept this?

Mel www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Mel Miller:
Me4Him,

Your parable from Matt.22 has no reference to
the future wedding supper of the Lamb. Your following quote has not yet been fulfilled:
_____________________________________________
"Israel was Invited to the Lamb's wedding supper, but refused to come".
_____________________________________________

The Lamb's Supper, contrary to your chart,
does not take place in heaven. It takes place
on the earth and ALL Israel will be "blessed
by having been called to the supper". Rev.19:9.

The supper takes place on earth after Christ
comes to "redeem" all of the houses of Israel
and Judah when God remembers their sin no
more and restores them as a people of His!

On the earth Israel will be blessed; but
Israel will not share heaven with the Bride
of the Lamb. Israel can only "inherit the
eternal kingdom on the earth". Matt.25:32-34.

Again, when ALL Israel is "redeemed", they will
be called to the wedding supper of the Bride
of the Lamb and their "kingdom" on earth will
be restored. Luke 21:28,31.

Do you accept this?

Mel www.lastday.net

Have you ever stopped to consider "WHY" there is a "Rapture" of a certain group of people, in the first place,

but not "EVERYONE" who is going to be saved is included in that rapture, and "WHY" they are not included???

You can't understand "WHAT HAPPENS" until you understand "WHY IT HAPPENS"??

Read the following link, all of it, only then will the verses fit into the context of which they were meant.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3398.html

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Have you ever stopped to consider "WHY" there is a "Rapture" of a certain group of people, in the first place,

but not "EVERYONE" who is going to be saved is included in that rapture, and "WHY" they are not included???

You can't understand "WHAT HAPPENS" until you understand "WHY IT HAPPENS"??

I really love the way you make statements with no Scriptural support, but make them as if they should be obvious to everyone. Have you ever wondered why the church for 2,000 years never knew about a so-called Rapture until a group of Brethren assemblies began listening to a woman prophet in the mid-1800's? That's where the view originated.

I used to believe in Pre-Tribulation Pre-millenialism. However, in having to defend my view against Post-millenialists, I had a hard time actually finding Scriptures that were clear on a rapture. I now have moved to Classical Pre-millenialism which has been around since the first century. I still see a literal millenium (it's hard for me to get around that). I just can't find a rapture.

 

[Boanerges]

Have you ever wondered why the church for 2,000 years never knew about a so-called Rapture until a group of Brethren assemblies began listening to a woman prophet in the mid-1800's? That's where the view originated.

Hey Calvi. Please post any info that you have on that topic. I would like to read it.

 

[Bro Tony]

Have you ever wondered why the church for 2,000 years never knew about a so-called Rapture until a group of Brethren assemblies began listening to a woman prophet in the mid-1800's? That's where the view originated

Wow! Really? Seems to me the Apostle Paul knew all about the "rapture" of the church and even wrote about it in his epistles to Corinth and Thessalonica. That it was ignored by many in the church for 2000 years and is being ignored by many today, does not change the fact that Paul wrote about it from the very beginning. The view did not originate in the 1800's, it originated in the same place that all biblical truth does----from the heart of God.

Bro Tony

 

[Calvibaptist]

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/dispensationalism.html
contains many articles critiquing dispensationalism.

SIDE NOTE - I don't believe everything I read about Dispensationalism that comes from a Reformed perspective. I have been a dispensationalist, and sometimes they mischaracterize beliefs. But there is some interesting stuff here none-the-less.

An interesting book about this is "Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth" by the late John Gerstner. He writes, "John Zens attributes the idea of a secret, pretribulational Rapture to Edward Irving while Dave MacPherson concludes that it arose through the charismatic prophecies of Margaret MacDonald, a visionary of the Irvingite group, though [John Nelson] Darby later concluded that she was deluded."

The Irvingite group was a sect of the Brethren movement in England. Darby came into contact with the Brethren and later split the group because of some of his views. It came over to America with the Plymouth Brethren and developed from there. Before the mid-1800's there was no teaching of a Rapture.

 

[johnp.]

Emmanuel Lacunza was (Rabbi Ben Ezra) a Jesuit priest. He built on the teachings of a bloke called Ribera.

A man is known by the company he keeps methinks.

A leading figure of the Catholic Apostolic Church of England and a most eloquent preacher, Edward Irving, translated Lacunza's book into English in 1827. Irving heard what he believed to be a voice from heaven commanding him to preach the Secret Rapture of the Saints. He began to hold Bible conferences throughout Scotland, emphasizing the coming of Jesus to rapture His Church. The question remained as to when was the "end of the age." The answer came through Margaret McDonald, a member of the Plymouth Brethren Church, in the 1830s. While in a trance she supported Ribera's system of interpretation and added that an event called the secret rapture would mark the "end of the age."
http://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/unknown_dd_01.html

How's that?

john.

 

[Bro Tony]

Before the mid-1800's there was no teaching of a Rapture.

Let's see if this is a true statement....

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15: 50-53

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 4: 15-18

The above written by the Apostle Paul in the 1st century A.D. inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Bro Tony

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bro Tony.

I think the problem has to do with the word 'raptured' not with Christ's return.
The closet rapture comes to a definition represented in scripture is: b : Christ's raising up of his true church and its members to a realm above the earth where the whole company will enjoy celestial bliss with its Lord
"rapture." Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (14 Feb. 2006).


If we take that realm to be above the earth but in the air, but the word leans more to the spirit than the flesh and is of Jesuit origin.

john.