Hal Lindsey a False Prophet?

[Johnv]

Me4Him, we're not discussing scripture prophecies in general. We're discussing Lindsey's errors. I'll say it again, very clearly:

Lindsey predicted that there would ten, and only ten, nations in the EU. When Greece joined in 1981, Lindsey cited Rev 13 and called Greece the "then tenth and final nation".

He was flat wrong, and his error is without excuse.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Me4Him, we're not discussing scripture prophecies in general. We're discussing Lindsey's errors. I'll say it again, very clearly:

Lindsey predicted that there would ten, and only ten, nations in the EU. When Greece joined in 1981, Lindsey cited Rev 13 and called Greece the "then tenth and final nation".

He was flat wrong, and his error is without excuse.

Like I said, I don't remember all the details, and I haven't counted all the nations Roman controlled, but "off hand" I'd say it was more than ten, and I can understand that when you see what scripture predicts, you believe it.

But if I recall, the original ten were the most "Properous, industrialized nations", meaning their "influence" pevailed over the smaller/weaker nations, so can you state for a fact that these original ten will not "emerge" as the "Ten heads".

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Me4Him, we're not discussing scripture prophecies in general. We're discussing Lindsey's errors. I'll say it again, very clearly:

Lindsey predicted that there would ten, and only ten, nations in the EU. When Greece joined in 1981, Lindsey cited Rev 13 and called Greece the "then tenth and final nation".

He was flat wrong, and his error is without excuse.

Hoo, boy, I'm glad I didn't predict the Super Bowl winner around you!

Seriously, though, at what point does prediction cross over into prophecy? Specifically, at what point did Hal Lindsey cease predicting and/or exegeting, and begin prophesying?

 

[LadyEagle]

I will not crucify Hal Lindsey to sell
the books against him. I do not
recommend you, my friends and fellow BBers
do that either.
We have no right to judge Brother
Hal Lindsey on the basis of the sales techniques of his enemies.
It just isn't fair.
It is the false judgement which the Bible
speaks against.

Amen. Hal Lindsey has been maligned.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Me4Him, we're not discussing scripture prophecies in general. We're discussing Lindsey's errors. I'll say it again, very clearly:

Lindsey predicted that there would ten, and only ten, nations in the EU. When Greece joined in 1981, Lindsey cited Rev 13 and called Greece the "then tenth and final nation".

He was flat wrong, and his error is without excuse.

And your quote and attribution data are?

I don't remember Hal saying this. Where is
your second witness, Bro?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here we go. Strange how a little research
can uncover stuff.

//Now, against all odds, 10 nations out of the ruins of the Roman culture and people have arisen as the real power behind the European Union. I believe they will become the power base through which a predicted leader will gain control over the whole world. The Bible calls him the "Antichrist."//

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43132

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Here we go. Strange how a little research
can uncover stuff.

//Now, against all odds, 10 nations out of the ruins of the Roman culture and people have arisen as the real power behind the European Union. I believe they will become the power base through which a predicted leader will gain control over the whole world. The Bible calls him the "Antichrist."//

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43132

The only problem is that there are more than 10!

Well no one ever said that dispensationalism was sound theology did they?

 

[OldRegular]

The European Union (EU) is a union of twenty-five independent states based on the European Communities and founded to enhance political, economic and social co-operation. Formerly known as European Community (EC) or European Economic Community (EEC).

Date of foundation: 1st November, 1993. New members since 1st January, 1995: Austria, Finland, Sweden. For the ten new members as of 1st May, 2004, see below.

Member states (EUR: Euro currency):
• Austria (EUR)
• Belgium (EUR)
• Denmark
• Finland (EUR)
• France (EUR)
• Germany (EUR)
• Greece (EUR)
• Ireland (EUR)
• Italy (EUR)
• Luxembourg (EUR)
• Netherlands (EUR)
• Portugal (EUR)
• Spain (EUR)
• Sweden
• United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland

Ten countries have joined the EU on 2004-05-01:
Cyprus (Greek part), the Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia.

http://userpage.chemie.fu-berlin.de/adressen/eu.html

Admittedly not all of the above were in the Roman Empire but more than 10 were.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Well no one ever said that dispensationalism was sound theology did they?

That's a pretty silly statement. You read Hal Lindsey and take it he is the latest thing in dispensational theology? Whew! (The same number of laughs you gave.) So, what's the main alternative to dispensational theology? Covenant theology, with all of its allegorizing.

Put aside Lindsey and take up some of the top flight theologians who teach dispensationalism, such as Charles Ryrie, Frank Gaebelein, John Walvoord, Louis Talbot, William Biederwolf, J. Dwight Pentecost.

 

[johnp.]

It will be the Catholic states that are the key I think.

john.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Repeated: Hal Lindsey:
// ... 10 nations out of the ruins of the Roman culture and people
have arisen as the real power behind the European Union.//

This does NOT say:
10 nations have arisen to for the European Union

Had Hal Lindsey performed Exegesis with history (starting with
the Bible, which talks about the Beast from the Sea /AKA: Antichrist/
and his ten nations) I'd say stone him. But he started with
the Bible and performed Eisogesis. Strange that other places on
this board Exegesis of the Bible is praised and Eisogesis of
the Bible is condemned, but here with the news, it is considered
aliright?

 

[LadyEagle]

There is always the possibility that some nations may split from the EU, leaving 10.

 

[johnp.]

There is always the possibility that some nations may split from the EU, leaving 10.

That's the way I see it LadyEagle. We do not know which nations will drop out before the end comes so to know if the predictions concerning the EU are correct we must wait til after or we are prophesying ourselves.

john.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
And your quote and attribution data are? I don't remember Hal saying this. Where is
your second witness, Bro?

I remember very vividly that Lindsey had a commercial on TV for a book of his (I don't remember which one). He succinctly used the phrase "This year, the tenth and final nation joined...". I remember it verbatim, as that commercial played over and over again locally. Perhaps someone else will recall it. One of the reason I remember is because we discussed in our religion class that very statement.

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Hal Lindsey has been maligned.

He has maligned himself. No one has done it for him.

 

[EdSutton]

I read the whole thread (I can't believe I read the whole thing! ) and have three things to say.
Well, after I say that I could care less whether or not one likes Hal Lindsey, Ed Sutton , or anyone else as a 'Bible commentator'.

First, I enjoyed the charts from Me4Him.

Second, I ask one again, "What makes one equivocate "states" with "nations" in Biblical terminology? See Gen. 11.

Third, as I cannot lay my hands on my concordance, "Where does it say that a day is a thousand years?"

Okay, I'm gonna make it four. Since this is 2006 A.D., if we are talking about the world being six thousand years old, already, wouldn't we already be in day seven? If what I've been told is right, and there is a seven year tribulation yet to come, before a thousand year reign, isn't our calender date of 2006 AD wrong?
Ed

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by EdSutton:

First, I enjoyed the charts from Me4Him.

THANK YOU.

Second, I ask one again, "What makes one equivocate "states" with "nations" in Biblical terminology? See Gen. 11.

Ge 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Ge 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

I'm not "exactly" sure of what your referrence is too????

Third, as I cannot lay my hands on my concordance, "Where does it say that a day is a thousand years?"

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved,

be not ignorant of this one thing,

that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Okay, I'm gonna make it four. Since this is 2006 A.D., if we are talking about the world being six thousand years old, already, wouldn't we already be in day seven? If what I've been told is right, and there is a seven year tribulation yet to come, before a thousand year reign, isn't our calender date of 2006 AD wrong?
Ed

The "Seventh day" is the seventh day for God,

however

it's the "THIRD DAY FOR JESUS".

So, is it the seventh day or Third day, well, actually "BOTH", depends on the "CONTEXT" (God/Jesus) of which you're referring.

Jesus is the "SON", but he's also the "Father", depends on "CONTEXT", getting the idea???


Actually, Jesus promise of "Early in the morning" of the "third day", would translate, "Early in the morning" of the "Seventh day", or what scripture refers to as the "First Resurrection".

"Resurrection" means to be "back on earth, alive", the rapture is not a "resurrection" as the word is used in scripture, the rapture occurs before the First resurrection, but it's not referred to as a "Resurrection", in the rapture, they are not "back on earth alive", but go directly to heaven.

 

[EdSutton]

Second, I ask one again, "What makes one equivocate "states" with "nations" in Biblical terminology? See Gen. 11. []

Ge 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Ge 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

I'm not "exactly" sure of what your referrence is too???? []

My bad! I meant to say Genesis 10, specifically verse 32 which states:
"32 These were the families of the sons of Noah, according to their generations, in their nations; and from these the nations were divided on the earth after the flood."
Sorry for the confusion!

Third, as I cannot lay my hands on my concordance, "Where does it say that a day is a thousand years?" []

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Uh, aren't you overlooking just one small word, here? That little word "as"? Unless my English is failing me, doesn't that make it a simile? Meaning it's comparing two unlike things? Or in other words, a picture? Nowhere does Scripture say you can 'plug in' this. It takes a preconceived theological notion to do so!

This leads me to the last point. This is purely eisogesis, and speculation. Interesting? Yes! Biblical doctrine? Hardly! And your eisogesis is no better or no worse than mine. Either, in this context, is still exactly that. Which is also one of the reasons of much of the problem with Hal Lindsey and some of these things that have been here talked about. They are merely that, speculation.
In His grace,
Ed

 

[Ed Edwards]

Which of the following would be an improvment on:

"This year, the tenth and final nation joined...

1) this year, the tenth and latest nation joined ...
2) this year, the tenth and absolutely last ever
nation joined ...
3) does the joining the EU this year of the tenth
complete the final ten that will usher in the Antichrist?
(recall there will be 13 nations in the Antichrist kingdom
before it is reduced by Antilchrist to 13)
4) God spoke to me from an 80-foot Jesus* and said:
this year the tenth nation that joined the EU will
complete the Antichrist Kingdom

* Sorry, nothing personal to Oral Roberts. He had an 80-foot high
Jesus vision that told him if he didn't raise $three-Million he would
be CALLED HOME

I find #1 to be mere news reporting (but that is what his quote
means)
I find #2 to be speculative and quite wrong (having 20-20 hindsight)
I find #3 to be rather presumptious and prophetic and wrong
I find #4 to be blaspheomus of God requiring stoning (in ancient Israel)
but seems to help religious quacks raise mega-bucks

OldRegular: //Well no one ever said that dispensationalism was sound theology did they?//

Actually the ones who knew what they were taking about
did claim that. The ones who fought it were just trolls.

In the same line of logic i claim:

Nobody ever questioned Hal's hamartiology

2 Peter 3:8B (KJV1769):
... with the Lord one day is like
1,000 years, and 1,000 yers like one day.

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

The discussion so far assumes the TEN must be
part of the UN or perhaps even of Nato.

Why may not the TEN become part of Mystery
Babylon, which will include all nations, and
yet at the same time be outside the present UN?

Why would any of the present UN "hate" Babylon
and then "destroy her in one hour"?

Babylon, IMO, will be centered at Rome and, by
including all nations, would allow TEN kings
belonging to Terrorist Nations to "work" from
within to destroy Rome which they "hate". At some point they would confiscate and change the "laws" of the System and "give their power
to the Beast" until God destroys both City and System by a great earthquake.

I also cannot see Me4Him relating the time for the First Resurrection and the 7th Millennium (or 3rd since Christ) to the START of dealing with Israel which he cannot allow until seven years AFTER 2018. Me4Him has the START of the
Daniel's prophecy seven years BEFORE Christ comes to "Restore All Things" instead of at
Christ's return from heaven as Peter predicted! Acts 3:21.

Me4Him wants to require 7000 years before the
Millennium; yet the "restoration" in his
view would not occur until 2025 (2018+7) !!!

Me4Him writes:
"Resurrection means to be `back on earth, alive' (in 2025). The rapture (in 2018) is not a `resurrection' as the word is used in scripture. The rapture occurs (7 years) before the First resurrection, but it's not referred to as a `Resurrection'. In the rapture, they are not
`back on earth alive', but go directly to heaven'".

Because of this unproven theory, I see no more legitimacy in Me4Him's charts than I have in
the predictions of Hal Lindsey.

Before we can discuss the time for the First
Resurrection, we need to determine when it is
that God STARTS dealing with Israel and STOPS
dealing with the Church. Is 1948 the date to
determine that 2018 begins God's "dealings"
with Israel (as Me4Him believes)?

Or does Jesus "remain in heaven until the restitution of all things" which requires the
martyrs out of the great tribulation to be
included in the First Resurrection"?

The System confiscated by the TEN will rule the
nations until Babylon is destroyed at the 2nd
Coming which no one can say should be in 2018.
Me4Him is just as guilty as Hal Lindsey in
setting dates based on a "theory" that God's
time for restoring all things must be 70 years
after 1948!!

Gentiles will continue to be saved during the
Great Tribulation. The "times for restoring
all things" begins at the 2nd Coming of Christ
from heaven TO earth.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Mel Miller]

Friends,

Please note in my Outline of Endtime Events that:

Babylon's first fall by fire is at #5.
Babylon's second fall by quake is at #28.

Mel