Harry Potter - Saint or Sinner?

[Marcia]

Harry and the other students are learning astrology, numerology, spell casting, magical potions, use of charms and amulets, among other things. These are all actual practices and people are doing them today, including in middle schools and high schools.

I used to be a professional astrologer who also had a spirit guide, knew numerology, had tarot cards, etc. Many of my clients and friends were witches who cast spells. I talk to Wiccans now in my ministry. It's fun and fulfilling at first and then you get into trouble and you either realize it's wrong or you get used to the darkness of it. These things are actually practiced. They are also condemned by God.

If Harry discovered he was gay, would Christians be okay with that? If not, why are they okay with Harry practing things God finds despicable? Is homosexuality worse than the practice of the occult? Both are wrong, according to God's word.

Of course the stories are entertaining. Wicca and astrology are fun and entertaining, too. These should not be the criteria to judge something as good or bad. In fact, the occult itself is intriguing and entertaining - that is partly what draws kids and others in.

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I have not read Narnia but as far as I know, Lewis does not have characters who endorse occult arts.

It depends on your definition of occult arts. If astrology would qualify, then Narnia actually endorses them more than Harry Potter. In Narnia, the stars really do tell the future and this is a good thing that some wise creatures of Narnia are aware of. In Harry Potter, there are centaurs who can see the future in the stars, but it is seen as dangerous because it paralyzes them into inaction and refusing to work for good because they think everything's already written.

Gandalf is a creature like an angel with certain inherent powers.

Magic capacity is also inherent in Harry Potter (those who don't have it are "muggles").

The main character, Frodo, does not practice the occult. Harry Potter does.

Yes, this is a real difference: the main characters in Harry Potter practice magic, while it is the supporting characters who do so in Lord of the Rings and (most of the time) in Narnia.

Harry also lies and cheats but does not feel remorse for it.

Yes, and I think that's a bigger problem than the fantasy magic. But, in later books, Harry does learn that his rulebreaking has real consequences, and he is admonished for being unnecessarily reckless in the past. He's portrayed as a fairly human character, with flaws and things that he still needs to learn.

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I used to be a professional astrologer who also had a spirit guide, knew numerology, had tarot cards, etc. Many of my clients and friends were witches who cast spells. I talk to Wiccans now in my ministry.

I can see how with your background a series like Harry Potter would be troubling. I think that's similar to how someone who was brought up with pagan celebrations may have difficulty celebrating Christmas because of its origins. But, for others, it is quite possible to do so. Just as Christmas can be more than the pagan festivals it came from, so too there's a rich literary history of fantasy magic that cannot be reduced to merely witchcraft.

Even the Bible contains fictional stories that, if taken literally, would point to demonic posession or something similar. Jotham tells a fable about talking trees in Judges 9:7-15, and Jehoash tells a short fable about thistles and trees communicating with each other in 2 Kings 14:9.

I don't think fantasy magic is necessarily evil, and I don't think it's necessary to read the occult into this kind of magic.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Mercury:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />It depends on your definition of occult arts. If astrology would qualify, then Narnia actually endorses them more than Harry Potter. In Narnia, the stars really do tell the future and this is a good thing that some wise creatures of Narnia are aware of. In Harry Potter, there are centaurs who can see the future in the stars, but it is seen as dangerous because it paralyzes them into inaction and refusing to work for good because they think everything's already written.

God lists occult practices in Deut. 18:10-12. These include divinatino, sorcery, casting spells, witchcraft, contacting the dead, incantations, etc. Divination includes astrology, card reading, etc. There are thousands of forms of divination.

If Narnia endorses astrology, that is wrong. It doesn't matter if C S Lewis wrote it -- we have to put God's word first.

Gandalf is a creature like an angel with certain inherent powers.

Magic capacity is also inherent in Harry Potter (those who don't have it are "muggles").
</font>

It may be inherent but Harry has those powers because he is natural born witch. More importantly, he is learning to practice occult arts period. There is no way to take that out of the book. It's there in black and white. He is honing his occult skills. He uses magick to fight magick (magick is occult magic); this is called white magick.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Mercury:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
I used to be a professional astrologer who also had a spirit guide, knew numerology, had tarot cards, etc. Many of my clients and friends were witches who cast spells. I talk to Wiccans now in my ministry.

I can see how with your background a series like Harry Potter would be troubling. I think that's similar to how someone who was brought up with pagan celebrations may have difficulty celebrating Christmas because of its origins. But, for others, it is quite possible to do so. Just as Christmas can be more than the pagan festivals it came from, so too there's a rich literary history of fantasy magic that cannot be reduced to merely witchcraft.
</font>[/QUOTE]It has little to do with my background. No matter what my background is, we have to look at God's word and no Christian can say that God does not condemn spells, incatations, astrology, sorcery, and divination.

The pagan origins of Christmas is a red herring argument. We are not talking about pagan origins but pagan practices being endorsed in a book for children. Being glamorized, if you will.

Even the Bible contains fictional stories that, if taken literally, would point to demonic posession or something similar. Jotham tells a fable about talking trees in Judges 9:7-15, and Jehoash tells a short fable about thistles and trees communicating with each other in 2 Kings 14:9.

I don't think fantasy magic is necessarily evil, and I don't think it's necessary to read the occult into this kind of magic.

But demonic possession is wrong in the Bible! What does this have to do with anything? Talking trees have nothing to do with occult practices.

Spells, divination, astrology, numerology, magical potions, etc. are not fantasy.

This is where so many are confused. Fantasy is not wrong but the occult is. Just because you have occult practices mixed in as a good thing with a fictional story, that does not make those practices okay.

I am not reading occult stuff into the books. It's there in black and white! Good grief! Harry takes divination, he studies astrology, he gives Hermione a book on numerology (for Christmas yet!), the kids learn spells.

I am not saying this book is a manual on how to do the occult but it is presenting it in a positive light.

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Marcia:
If Narnia endorses astrology, that is wrong. It doesn't matter if C S Lewis wrote it -- we have to put God's word first.

In the broadest sense, the Bible contains astrology too: a star leads the magi from the east to Jesus. C.S. Lewis imagined a different universe where stars were actually persons and not balls of gas and they really did move in ways that prophecied future events, and by so doing they served their Creator. I don't think a blanket condemnation of this type of imaginative fiction is warranted. I realize some think that imagining anything other than what God actually created is wrong, but by that measure, all fiction would be forbidden.

 

[Marcia]

The magi knew astrology because astronomy and astrology were the same thing at that time. This does not mean God used astrology. Many think the star was the Shekinah because, after leading them to Herod, it then stood over the house where Jesus was. No astrological configuration can do that. It was either the Shekinah or a supernatural star, imo. I have an entry on this on my FAQ page at
http://cana.userworld.com/cana_faqs.html

I am not making a "blanketed condemnation" of a certain kind of fiction. I am specifically pointing out, using the books themselves, how HP endorses occult arts that God condemns. You should read my articles. I back everthing up from the books themselves and from the Bible.

This is not about condemning fiction! I've been writing since I was 8 yrs. old. I love to read. I have nothing against fiction. This is a straw man.

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Marcia:
This is not about condemning fiction! I've been writing since I was 8 yrs. old. I love to read. I have nothing against fiction. This is a straw man.

Then what is your objection to the "astrology" in Narnia? It is another universe where stars are beings and not balls of gas. Stars were the allegorical prophets in Lewis' fictional world. I don't see how your rejection of that as occultic is compatible with allowing "Shekinah" in the form of a star in the Bible.

 

[I hate sin]

Is the wrath of God against people who have pleasure in reading Harry Potter. If you believe God’s word to be true, the answer is yes;

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

We know from scripture that witches are unrighteous and ungodly;

Exo 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

The wrath of God is revealed against people who know the judgement of God, and willingly continue to have pleasure in things that are against God.

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

We are told that people who had pleasure in unrighteousness will be damned;

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Please don’t judge your Christian walk by how the majority of those who profess to know Christ are walking. Compare your lives to the word of God with much prayer.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Mercury:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
This is not about condemning fiction! I've been writing since I was 8 yrs. old. I love to read. I have nothing against fiction. This is a straw man.

Then what is your objection to the "astrology" in Narnia? It is another universe where stars are beings and not balls of gas. Stars were the allegorical prophets in Lewis' fictional world. </font>[/QUOTE]Well, then it's not astrology. If stars are just "allegorical prophets" then it's not astrology. I said I hadn't read Narnia so I am going just by the few lines you are giving on it. Anyway, that's not the issue.

Whatever might be or might not be in other books, the issues with HP that I pointed out remain.

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Well, then it's not astrology.

Exactly. It's not occultic astrology. It is astrology in the wider sense of learning from the stars, but the trappings around it are so different that there is not a 1:1 correspondence between it and occultic astrology.

Nor is there a 1:1 correspondence between the astrology in Harry Potter and occultic astrology. For one thing, I don't think the occult limits astrology to centaurs. As the mythical beasts like centaurs, unicorns, phoenixes, gnomes and dragons show, Harry Potter is set in a universe like ours, but it is not exactly our universe. Just because centaurs can get meaning from the stars in that universe doesn't mean that astrology is right in our universe. (And, aside from all that, reading the stars is portrayed as a negative, paralyzing thing even for the centaurs, especially in the first book.)

When it comes to things like reading tea leaves or hearing one's fortune, these activities are portrayed as worthless hoaxes that mislead the gullible. (I realize that those who take these activities more seriously may be bothered by this portrayal. Rowling does not appear to have any more respect for occultic practices than Elijah had for false gods. She simply dismisses them as nonsense.) In the cases where a fortune-teller does make a true prediction (one in the main narrative and one in a flashback), they are presented as coming through in spite of the fortune-teller rather than because of her. The incidents have a lot of parallels to Saul's encounter with the witch at Endor, where that witch also gets more than she bargained for. Just as the witch at Endor is not normative for how the Bible deals with the occult, so too these incidents in Harry Potter are not normative.

I can see why some would be bothered by Rowling's approach to the occult. To her, it is not real. The magic that is real in her books is the fantasy magic of flying broomsticks, magical creatures, spells based on Latin puns and waving a magic wand (with a feather of a phoenix or hair of a unicorn within it), and potions with impossible-to-obtain-in-the-real-world ingredients. For those who know the occult to be very real, this casual dismissal along with the way fantasy magic coexists with practices that have a real occultic basis may be very problematic. As I said earlier, this is similar to how those too close to pagan activities may be bothered by Christian celebrations of Christmas. But, for those who don't have that unfortunate baggage (I hope we'd agree that it is unfortunate, even if God can use those who have it), both Christmas and Harry Potter can be enjoyed with a clear conscience, and Harry is not more likely to lead such a person to the occult than celebrating Christmas would lead a person into paganism.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Mercury:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Marcia:
Well, then it's not astrology.

Exactly. It's not occultic astrology. It is astrology in the wider sense of learning from the stars, but the trappings around it are so different that there is not a 1:1 correspondence between it and occultic astrology.

Nor is there a 1:1 correspondence between the astrology in Harry Potter and occultic astrology.
</font>[/QUOTE]I think these are distinctions without a difference, as far as HP goes. Harry is taking Astrology as a course, and it does involve plotting or charting the position of planets at birth and reading the chart. This is how real astrology is done. Although it is somewhat denigrated in the book because Harry does not like it, and because of the teacher, it is still there. Other forms of the occult are still given respect, despite the astrology course.

When it comes to things like reading tea leaves or hearing one's fortune, these activities are portrayed as worthless hoaxes that mislead the gullible. (I realize that those who take these activities more seriously may be bothered by this portrayal. Rowling does not appear to have any more respect for occultic practices than Elijah had for false gods. She simply dismisses them as nonsense.) In the cases where a fortune-teller does make a true prediction (one in the main narrative and one in a flashback), they are presented as coming through in spite of the fortune-teller rather than because of her. The incidents have a lot of parallels to Saul's encounter with the witch at Endor, where that witch also gets more than she bargained for. Just as the witch at Endor is not normative for how the Bible deals with the occult, so too these incidents in Harry Potter are not normative.

Just because JKR puts down some occult forms of divination, she still has a main character growing in power as he learns to be more skilled at casting spells and magick. Apparently, in the 6th books, his growth in these skills and powers are portrayed very positively (am reading this now but don't have time to read much for awhile).
Also, there's the book on Numerology that makes Hermione very happy. If you read my articles, you'll see other parallels, such as the conjuring of the guardian spirit that is taught to Harry in book 4. This is an actual practice in the occult for the conjuring of a thought-form, believed to be a quasi-independent spirit invoked for protection.

I see no parallel to the witch (or medium) at Endor because that was a situation that involved God. That is not the case in HP.

I can see why some would be bothered by Rowling's approach to the occult. To her, it is not real. The magic that is real in her books is the fantasy magic of flying broomsticks, magical creatures, spells based on Latin puns and waving a magic wand (with a feather of a phoenix or hair of a unicorn within it), and potions with impossible-to-obtain-in-the-real-world ingredients. For those who know the occult to be very real, this casual dismissal along with the way fantasy magic coexists with practices that have a real occultic basis may be very problematic. As I said earlier, this is similar to how those too close to pagan activities may be bothered by Christian celebrations of Christmas. But, for those who don't have that unfortunate baggage (I hope we'd agree that it is unfortunate, even if God can use those who have it), both Christmas and Harry Potter can be enjoyed with a clear conscience, and Harry is not more likely to lead such a person to the occult than celebrating Christmas would lead a person into paganism.

You are still making a faulty analogy with Christmas. This is total red herring. If you celebrate Christmas as a Pagan, then it's pagan (as in the winter solstice celebrations). But Christmas itself is a holiday, not a practice that is learned as Harry and other kids are doing at Hogwarts. Even though many of the ingredients, such as the phoenix feather, are imaginary, there are actual spells today kids can find, and do find. These things in HP reflect real practices even if the content is not the same.

 

[Marcia]

Sorry double post

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Harry is taking Astrology as a course, and it does involve plotting or charting the position of planets at birth and reading the chart.

Yes, and it is portrayed as nonsense that is distracting from the "real" magic -- fantasy magic such as learning about magical creatures and other things that cannot be directly applied in our world. This kind of magic also has a long history, although it is a history in literature, not the occult.

Although it is somewhat denigrated in the book because Harry does not like it, and because of the teacher, it is still there. Other forms of the occult are still given respect, despite the astrology course.

What is given respect is the type of magic that is clearly fantastical -- magical creatures, potions with impossible ingredients, flying on brooms, etc.

Just because JKR puts down some occult forms of divination, she still has a main character growing in power as he learns to be more skilled at casting spells and magick.

It's spelled "magic" in Harry Potter, so if that alternate spelling indicates a different kind of magic, then the author has intentionally distanced her magic from it.

I see no parallel to the witch (or medium) at Endor because that was a situation that involved God.

And yet you do see parallels between Harry Potter and the occult, even though it doesn't involve Satan? Isn't that rather selective reasoning?

If you celebrate Christmas as a Pagan, then it's pagan (as in the winter solstice celebrations). But Christmas itself is a holiday, not a practice that is learned as Harry and other kids are doing at Hogwarts. Even though many of the ingredients, such as the phoenix feather, are imaginary, there are actual spells today kids can find, and do find. These things in HP reflect real practices even if the content is not the same.

Yes, just as Christmas trees and holly wreaths reflect real pagan practices. I think the analogy holds up quite well.

 

[Karen]

Marcia,
You as always write thoughtful articles.
But I find myself agreeing more with the ideas expressed here.

www.facingthechallenge.org/potter.htm

www.christianitytoday.com/cpt/2000/005/4.44.html

Karen

 

[Ulsterman]

Did anyone notice that the name "Harry Potter" on the opening page of this thread produces a Google ad for the "Witchcraft Shop" and another for "Magic Spells", both purveyors of occultic materials?

Isn't it significant that those who are actually dabbling in or practicing the occult recognise something abpout the character of Harry Potter that some Christians on this thread deny?

 

[I hate sin]

AMEN ULSTERMAN!

Good observation!

 

[Mercury]

Originally posted by Ulsterman:
Did anyone notice that the name "Harry Potter" on the opening page of this thread produces a Google ad for the "Witchcraft Shop" and another for "Magic Spells", both purveyors of occultic materials?

Google ads are based on more than the title. That page also contained the terms "witchcraft", "divination", "sorcery", "demonic", "magic" and "spells".

The ads are a reflection of the content of this thread, not the content of the books.

 

[I hate sin]

Even so Mercury,

It is true that thsoe who are in the occult are more aware of the truth concerning their own beliefs than many Christians are. An example of this is the Satanic Trinity symbol found on some New King James Version Bibles. Many Christians are unaware of this symbol. But if they were to pay attention to the start of the Satanic show "Charmed", or have a browse in an Occult book shop, they would be then less ignorant of Satan's devices.

 

[Bro. James]

"The error of halo"--C.S. Lewis was a Christian--his works must be O.K.

"You will not surely die, you will become wise...", Satan--it worked on Eve.

"Come out from among them, saith The Lord, and touch not the unclean thing."

Selah,

Bro. James