Has the Law of Moses Been Abolished?

[Jason1]

One other thing brother, IF the law were still in effect, we'd die by it, that's it's purpose, "With the law comes sin, with sin death". Paul's HUGE admonition to the Galatians, please study Galatians IS THAT THEY RETURNED TO THE LAW. He said "After being saved by faith are you returning to the law", I mean just ask Paul what he thinks of the law, he even says "So is then the law sin"? And answers "by no means, if not for the law I would not know sin". EVERY world Religion lives by a law, one or the other, but still MERIT, one of my favorite sayings was from John Bunyon, he suffered horribly from Scrupulosity (Religious OCD), almost killed himself (Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners), his saying was simple, "MY Righteousness is in Heaven", so what did he mean, he simply meant that there is no righteousness in him, on his best day he violates the law (I think it's Heidelberg, yeah that one), where they go through the commandments, and then show many ways in which we violate each command, man you read that, trust me all self-sufficiency shall fall off, CHRIST IS MY RIGHTEOUSNESS, He didn't merely take the just punishment for my sins, but His righteousness was inputed to us the day we trusted in Him as Lord and SAVIOR, the Spirit applies His righteousness to us, our flesh is dead, but our spirits are alive, RIGHTEOUS, I know if we know our heart it's tough, but it's scripture.

I comment again only because its so dangerous, Paul said to those following the law "you have fallen from righteousness", not lost just not in grace as you are trying to merit Heaven instead of receiving it as a free gift from the finished, once for all finished work of Christ. And what's remarkable is that as we trust Christ, we hate sin! I've tried the exhaustive works life, it's awful, and I sinned more, but by Sola Fide I ended up doing much better.

Luther, when he was a Augustinian monk, brutalized himself, that's what they did, they ate bland food, slept on hard rock beds, they'd beat themselves, even lay naked in the snow, anything to "kill the flesh", he said if he stayed he'd probably have died. Anyways he said "Believing in Christ alone is much harder than all of my days in monkary". They asked Jesus, "What WORK shall we do"? Jesus said "Here is the work of the Father, TO BELIEVE ON THE ONE HE SENT". Please get this in your being.

Calv,

There is a huge problem with church understanding of galations. Its not that they were wanting to return to the torah that was the issue, it was that they were returning to judaism and their oral law and traditions. This is the main subject both Yeshua and Paul come against over and over (NEVER THE TORAH). When you see "works of the law" it refers to oral law. Here is a verse that point out the problem:

Gal 4:9 But now after you have known Elohim, or rather are known by Elohim, how do you turn again to the weak and poor elementary matters,1 to which you wish to be enslaved again? Footnote: 1See v.3, Col. 2:8 & 20.​

Which cross links to:

Col 2:8 See to it that no one makes a prey of you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary matters of the world,1 and not according to Messiah.
Col 2:20 If, then, you died with Messiah from the elementary matters1 of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations: Footnote: 1See v. 8, and Gal. 4:3 & 9.
​

If you truly believe in Yeshua and His words, you will do what He says:

Luk_6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say?1 Footnote: 1see vv. 47-49, Mt. 7:24-28, Lk. 8:21, John 3:36, Jas. 2:17-24.
​

Saying that keeping the torah for salvation is true. It is the narrow path to the Father after Yeshua restores you back to covenant. Saying you don't keep it means you are staying in sin, are not repentant, and deserve death.

 

[jardows]

Going to add a point I made in a sermon I preached a few weeks ago:

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law. When you are in Christ, the requirements of the Law (for you) have been fulfilled. If you are not in Christ, then you are still responsible to fulfill the requirements of the Law by your own, filthy rag righteousness.

 

[Jason1]

Going to add a point I made in a sermon I preached a few weeks ago:

Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law. When you are in Christ, the requirements of the Law (for you) have been fulfilled. If you are not in Christ, then you are still responsible to fulfill the requirements of the Law by your own, filthy rag righteousness.

Ugg, another "fulfillment" taken out of context. Yeshua gave proper understanding, not a ceasing of torah. That goes against everything in scripture...

 

[jardows]

Ugg, another "fulfillment" taken out of context. Yeshua gave proper understanding, not a ceasing of torah. That goes against everything in scripture...

Did I say that the Law ceased? No, I said very clearly that the Law is in full affect for those who are not in Christ.

With your views, perhaps you could explain in more detail then the purpose of Jesus Christ dying on the cross, as it relates to the requirements of the law for a sin sacrifice

 

[Adonia]

The law is YHVH's expression of His character and His will for us on how to treat Him and our neighbors.

The 7th day sabbath is a test command to see who will obey Him and honor Him as the Creator. (picking out the most abused command)

This was overridden by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ - the Messiah. So if you keep the 7th day sabbath, I hope you are also keeping the other over 600 commands that those who live under the OT law are required to keep. One cannot pick and choose when it comes to obeying God's commands.

 

[Jason1]

Did I say that the Law ceased? No, I said very clearly that the Law is in full affect for those who are not in Christ.

With your views, perhaps you could explain in more detail then the purpose of Jesus Christ dying on the cross, as it relates to the requirements of the law for a sin sacrifice

The law is in full effect for all time. If you are "in Yeshua" that means you are in "The Word" which is also synonymous for "In Torah".

Yeshua came to pay the penalty of an adulterous woman. He was mocked, stripped, beaten, given bitter water, and had his garments parted as she was to have done. He took that penalty for Israel going after the ba'als and he bought her back to remarry in a new covenant (remarriage). Do you honestly think that he now does not require obedience of his bride as at the first? It makes no logical sense that the bride can now do as she wishes and have no standard of righteousness.

Luk_6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

 

[Jason1]

This was overridden by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ - the Messiah. So if you keep the 7th day sabbath, I hope you are also keeping the other over 600 commands that those who live under the OT law are required to keep. One cannot pick and choose when it comes to obeying God's commands.

Exactly, we are to keep EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the Father's mouth. Nothing was over ridden and that is complete foolishness to say so (Yeshua says the opposite).

Only part of the 613 commandments can be kept by a person today depending on where you fall into the categories. But Yeshua says:

Mat_11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

No man-made laws, just pure written word given by the Father. Easy

 

[JonShaff]

The law is YHVH's expression of His character and His will for us on how to treat Him and our neighbors.

The 7th day sabbath is a test command to see who will obey Him and honor Him as the Creator. (picking out the most abused command)

Jesus Is the Expression of Him...Hebrews 1:1-3

 

[Jason1]

Jesus Is the Expression of Him...Hebrews 1:1-3

Absolutely. YHVH spoke forth His Word (torah). The Word (torah) became flesh and was obedient unto death. And now we should walk as He walked. 1 John 2:6

 

[jardows]

The law is in full effect for all time. If you are "in Yeshua" that means you are in "The Word" which is also synonymous for "In Torah".

Yeshua came to pay the penalty of an adulterous woman. He was mocked, stripped, beaten, given bitter water, and had his garments parted as she was to have done. He took that penalty for Israel going after the ba'als and he bought her back to remarry in a new covenant (remarriage). Do you honestly think that he now does not require obedience of his bride as at the first? It makes no logical sense that the bride can now do as she wishes and have no standard of righteousness.

Luk_6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

You have a selective choosing of which scriptures to read and follow to justify your position. I will have no more to say with you on this matter, as you refuse to read and understand what has been written. Jesus died for the nations, not for Israel. I suggest you re-read Isaiah.

 

[Jason1]

You have a selective choosing of which scriptures to read and follow to justify your position. I will have no more to say with you on this matter, as you refuse to read and understand what has been written. Jesus died for the nations, not for Israel. I suggest you re-read Isaiah.

Mat_15:24 And He answering, said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.”

 

[JonShaff]

Mat_15:24 And He answering, said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.”

John 10
6 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

 

[Jason1]

John 10
6 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, have been grafted in among them, and came to share the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. And if you boast, remember: you do not bear the root, but the root bears you!
Rom 11:19 You shall say then, “The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
Rom 11:20 Good! By unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by belief. Do not be arrogant, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if Elohim did not spare the natural branches, He might not spare you either.

Exo_12:49 “There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

 

[KLD]

The Law of Moses has not been abolished, because heaven and earth has not yet passed away, hence "unit heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law..." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least...". Even Paul says, "we do not nullify the Law by this faith, but we uphold the Law". Lets discuss.

"For the woman who has a husband, is bound by law to the husband while he is living; but if the husband dies, she is discharged from the law of the husband. So if then, while the husband lives, if she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if the husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is no adulteress, though she is joined to another man. Wherefore, my brothers, you also are made dead to the law [Torah] through the body of Christ; that you should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God" (Romans 7:2-4).

If Christians are equally obligated to the Torah and the law of Christ, they are in a state of spiritual adultery!

 

[JonShaff]

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, have been grafted in among them, and came to share the root and fatness of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not boast against the branches. And if you boast, remember: you do not bear the root, but the root bears you!
Rom 11:19 You shall say then, “The branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.”
Rom 11:20 Good! By unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by belief. Do not be arrogant, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if Elohim did not spare the natural branches, He might not spare you either.

Exo_12:49 “There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

what will be broken off? This isn't talking about individual people here man. Look at the context.

 

[Jason1]

what will be broken off? This isn't talking about individual people here man. Look at the context.

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you, the gentiles, inasmuch as I am an emissary to the gentiles, I esteem my service,
Rom 11:14 if somehow I might provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their casting away is the restoration to favour of the world, what is their acceptance but life from the dead?

Rom 11:21 For if Elohim did not spare the natural branches, He might not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 See then the kindness and sharpness of Elohim: on those who fell sharpness, but toward you kindness, if you continue in His kindness, otherwise you also shall be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for Elohim is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant of this secret, brothers, lest you should be wise in your own estimation, that hardening in part has come over Yisra’ĕl, until the completeness of the gentiles has come in.

 

[JonShaff]

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you, the gentiles, inasmuch as I am an emissary to the gentiles, I esteem my service,
Rom 11:14 if somehow I might provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if their casting away is the restoration to favour of the world, what is their acceptance but life from the dead?

Rom 11:21 For if Elohim did not spare the natural branches, He might not spare you either.
Rom 11:22 See then the kindness and sharpness of Elohim: on those who fell sharpness, but toward you kindness, if you continue in His kindness, otherwise you also shall be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, shall be grafted in, for Elohim is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I do not wish you to be ignorant of this secret, brothers, lest you should be wise in your own estimation, that hardening in part has come over Yisra’ĕl, until the completeness of the gentiles has come in.

those who are "of Paul's flesh" are his fellow Israelites according to lineage/nationality. What are you trying to say?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The law is YHVH's expression of His character and His will for us on how to treat Him and our neighbors.

...which was the way "it is written of the Christ, how He ought to have suffered" and be <treated>. And unless the Law every iota and tittle and heavens every ray of light and earth every grain of sand have passed away, NOTHING came of the Way, the Life or <<of His character and His will for us>> to be saved, and are we all in our sins yet dead.

 

[Frank Leyland]

The Law of Moses has not been abolished, because heaven and earth has not yet passed away, hence "unit heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law..." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least...". Even Paul says, "we do not nullify the Law by this faith, but we uphold the Law". Lets discuss.

The Law has not been abolished - it was fulfilled/completed by Y'shua/Jesus. For anyone now to try to live by The Law, rather than employing Faith in The Messiah, then they will "...die by The Law..." NO-ONE gets eternal life by righteous works but purely and simply by Faith in Jesus/Y'shua. NOTHING and no-one else counts for one iota towards this.

 

[Frank Leyland]

those who are "of Paul's flesh" are his fellow Israelites according to lineage/nationality. What are you trying to say?

What, exactly, is your question?