Has the Law of Moses Been Abolished?

[christiang]

The Law of Moses has not been abolished, because heaven and earth has not yet passed away, hence "unit heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law..." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least...". Even Paul says, "we do not nullify the Law by this faith, but we uphold the Law". Lets discuss.

 

[Smiley]

Yes, the Spirit of the Law is still in effect and indeed eternal.

However, the Law was broken (by man) when Israel chose a King. Once there was no longer a way to fulfill the penalties required by the first Temple Theocrasy, the Law fell under human administration and could only grow more and more corrupted...and did so for thousands of years.

The Law itself can not change. However the Administration of the Law changed once a perfect sin was offered for all. Our "lamb" for sin was replaced by the Lamb of God, and the Spirit fell on Shavout, just as promised.

Something very different did happen at the Cross. If one's sins (past, present, future) are paid then there has been a change in the Law. However, I think you'd find that I agree with you, if you're point is that the wisdom of the Torah is eternal and Christians ignore it to their peril.

 

[Jason1]

The law is YHVH's expression of His character and His will for us on how to treat Him and our neighbors.

The 7th day sabbath is a test command to see who will obey Him and honor Him as the Creator. (picking out the most abused command)

 

[Smiley]

The law is YHVH's expression of His character and His will for us on how to treat Him and our neighbors.

The 7th day sabbath is a test command to see who will obey Him and honor Him as the Creator. (picking out the most abused command)

OK, but if the penalty for sin is paid then isn't one day of rest in seven as unto the Lord fulfilling the Spirit of this Law?

What is the penalty of ignorance on this one? IF there is none, then is this "legally binding" (for lack of a better word) ? Unless, you're trying to say that not observing Sabbath keeps one out of the Age to Come?

 

[Jason1]

OK, but if the penalty for sin is paid then isn't one day of rest in seven as unto the Lord fulfilling the Spirit of this Law?

What is the penalty of ignorance on this one? IF there is none, then is this "legally binding" (for lack of a better word) ? Unless, you're trying to say that not observing Sabbath keeps one out of the Age to Come?

No Smiley, that is not the spirit, that is disobedience. There is a specific day YHVH chose to rest and set apart. It was the catholic church that moved it to the 1st day as "Their mark" of authority. This is a repeat of the sin of Jeraboam where he made priests out of anybody, move the feast date of sukkot, set up his own places of worship, and he also made two golden calves.

The penalty is the same as willfully breaking other commandments: future judgment and potential eternal death. It is a deception to say you can sin and have no consequence to it.

1Sa_15:22 Then Shemu’ĕl said, “Does יהוה delight in burnt offerings and slaughterings, as in obeying the voice of יהוה? Look, to obey is better than an offering, to heed is better than the fat of rams.

 

[Smiley]

Hmmm. Who decides what is Torah observance? You presume to teach us?

Yeshua said to a nation of Torah teachers and observant people that if they loved Him they would keep His commandments. Do you ever suppose He was making a distinction between them and His teaching on the Torah?

 

[Smiley]

Do you understand that the very "gospel" (good news) is that your sins are blotted out? Do you understand that this is done by faith and everyone is on the same position of salvation by faith?

Not diminishing the importance of good works as much as pointing out that anything outside of faith is worthless stubble. Anything.

 

[Jason1]

Do you understand that the very "gospel" (good news) is that your sins are blotted out? Do you understand that this is done by faith and everyone is on the same position of salvation by faith?

Not diminishing the importance of good works as much as pointing out that anything outside of faith is worthless stubble. Anything.

Oh, absolutely correct. His blood washes your sins totally away when you accept His sacrifice and return back to the covenant. Blank slate. Now what happens if you continue in sin? Is that slate still clean or is something expected of you? Are you eternally clean if you murder 100 people? What if you steal from 10 people in a big way? What if you break the sabbath on purpose for the rest of your life? Are you perfectly sinless always?

What will we be judged by on judgment day?

 

[Jason1]

Hmmm. Who decides what is Torah observance? You presume to teach us?

Yeshua said to a nation of Torah teachers and observant people that if they loved Him they would keep His commandments. Do you ever suppose He was making a distinction between them and His teaching on the Torah?

Yes, I do. We could get pretty deep on this topic, but basically the religious leaders of that day were breaking the written word by their oral laws and traditions:

Mar 7:13 nullifying the Word of Elohim through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such traditions you do.”

Mat_15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.​

The distinction Jesus made (and also Paul) was written word vs oral law/tradition. Jesus came to give a proper interpretation of the written torah and to walk it out in perfect obedience. What did the pharisees do?:

Mat_23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
​

Oral law placed a fence around torah and added to it against deu 4:2 and deu 12:32. They also became hypocrits. Look how Yeshua contrasts Oral with written:

Mat_11:30 “For My yoke is gentle and My burden is light.”
​

And remember, Yeshua is the word (aka torah) and phrase correlates to the Father's words:

Deu 30:11 “For this command which I am commanding you today, it is not too hard for you, nor is it far off.
Deu 30:12 “It is not in the heavens, to say, ‘Who shall ascend into the heavens for us, and bring it to us, and cause us to hear it, so that we do it?’
Deu 30:13 “Nor is it beyond the sea, to say, ‘Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it to us, and cause us to hear it, so that we do it?’
Deu 30:14 “For the Word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart – to do it.
​

 

[Vizio]

The Law of Moses has not been abolished, because heaven and earth has not yet passed away, hence "unit heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law..." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least...". Even Paul says, "we do not nullify the Law by this faith, but we uphold the Law". Lets discuss.

Romans 10:4 states Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness for those that believe. The Law has been fulfilled. It now tells us what a good work is -- to love God and our neighbor. We don't keep it for salvation, but we do good works out of grattitude.

 

[Calv1]

Depends on what you mean, this is a very simple topic. Jesus didn't come only to die for our sins, He also came, as He told John the Baptist when getting baptized "To fulfill all righteousness", for who? Him? No, for US. If we only had our sins washed away we'd be innocent like Adam, but not righteous like Christ, only through this "Foreign (Alien) righteousness imputed to us through the Holy Spirit can we be righteous in God's sight.

The 10 commandments are God's ETERNAL MORAL LAW, of course it's evil to kill, steal, covet, God correcting Hand will come on us if we live in these things. I'd recommend you re-read Romans and Galatians, as well as Hebrews, Paul said to the Galatians "Who has bewitched you, to start in grace and now finish with the law", and "if you live by the law you will die by the law", Jesus didn't abolish the Law, it's still in effect, He came to FULFILL IT TO US, THE LAW IS STILL IN EFFECT, THE UNREGENERATE ARE JUDGED BY IT, but we CAN NEVER BE JUDGED BY IT.

Pauls explanation of If you're married, and you take another partner you commit adultery, but if the husband dies you can take another husband and it's not adultery, in the same way the Law is dead to us, fulfilled and buried, never to judge us again. So if you live under the law, you have fallen from grace, if you trust in the One who fulfilled the law, His righteousness is once and for all imputed to us, and the law, while we instinctively live by it "I will put my law in their hearts", we will never be judged by it. END

The Law of Moses has not been abolished, because heaven and earth has not yet passed away, hence "unit heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law..." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least...". Even Paul says, "we do not nullify the Law by this faith, but we uphold the Law". Lets discuss.

 

[Calv1]

By the way, yes "Heaven and Earth" HAS passed away. If you studied OT and, by the way I recommend every Christian studying Judaism first century, when they talked about the temple, they called it, yep HEAVEN AND EARTH, why? Because it's where in their minds "Heaven and Earth" meet. First century study is SO IMPORTANT, IE the "Rooster Crow" was not a Rooster, chicken weren't allowed anywhere near the temple, but at 12,3 and 6, at the gates a man would come down and yell out "Hear oh Israel your sacrifice is here", they called it the "Rooster Crow" as the person reminded them of a Rooster, it also helps explain a seeming contradiction with Peter and what order He denied Christ.

One point to you regarding Hermaneutics, NEVER pick one thing "This can't happen because that didn't", that's a reckless way to determine truth. God Bless

The Law of Moses has not been abolished, because heaven and earth has not yet passed away, hence "unit heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law..." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least...". Even Paul says, "we do not nullify the Law by this faith, but we uphold the Law". Lets discuss.

 

[Jason1]

By the way, yes "Heaven and Earth" HAS passed away. If you studied OT and, by the way I recommend every Christian studying Judaism first century, when they talked about the temple, they called it, yep HEAVEN AND EARTH, why? Because it's where in their minds "Heaven and Earth" meet. First century study is SO IMPORTANT, IE the "Rooster Crow" was not a Rooster, chicken weren't allowed anywhere near the temple, but at 12,3 and 6, at the gates a man would come down and yell out "Hear oh Israel your sacrifice is here", they called it the "Rooster Crow" as the person reminded them of a Rooster, it also helps explain a seeming contradiction with Peter and what order He denied Christ.

One point to you regarding Hermaneutics, NEVER pick one thing "This can't happen because that didn't", that's a reckless way to determine truth. God Bless

Mat_24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Luk_16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

His words are torah (He is the word made flesh)

 

[Calv1]

Mat_24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Luk_16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

His words are torah (He is the word made flesh)

I understand brother, by the way do we comment above your quote or below it? Thanks for any help.
Yes I understand, I'm just telling you, study first century Judaism, it's fascinating, when THEY SAID "Heaven and Earth", they meant THE TEMPLE, just fact, so when Jesus said that, He was saying "The Temple (Place of worship, place of redemption) will pass away, but my words will never pass away". It doesn't even make sense in a formal sense, for Heaven and Earth will never pass away, but be CHANGED.

This earth is our ETERNAL HOME, like us, it will be destroyed and resurrected, Psalm 79:68 says the "Earth is established FOREVER" emphasis mine. Ecc. 1:4 says "But the Earth abides FOREVER", so contradiction? That's where we Christians get in trouble, trust me critics are at the door waiting to pounce on you, no, no contradiction, Jesus reference, per the way they spoke then meant "Heaven and Earth" as the temple.

Yes, the Earth will ABIDE FOREVER, but so will we, so what is the answer? It will be CHANGED, with great fire (sounds like Atoms falling apart and being changed, just my speculation) BUT what's not speculation is that the Heavens and Earth will last FOREVER, it's just that they will be CHANGED, as us "We shall be changed", so your body will live forever, in a glorified state of course, the Earth and Heaven will last forever, just in a resurrected form

Thanks

 

[Christine Baker]

Depends on what you mean, this is a very simple topic. Jesus didn't come only to die for our sins, He also came, as He told John the Baptist when getting baptized "To fulfill all righteousness", for who? Him? No, for US. If we only had our sins washed away we'd be innocent like Adam, but not righteous like Christ, only through this "Foreign (Alien) righteousness imputed to us through the Holy Spirit can we be righteous in God's sight.

The 10 commandments are God's ETERNAL MORAL LAW, of course it's evil to kill, steal, covet, God correcting Hand will come on us if we live in these things. I'd recommend you re-read Romans and Galatians, as well as Hebrews, Paul said to the Galatians "Who has bewitched you, to start in grace and now finish with the law", and "if you live by the law you will die by the law", Jesus didn't abolish the Law, it's still in effect, He came to FULFILL IT TO US, THE LAW IS STILL IN EFFECT, THE UNREGENERATE ARE JUDGED BY IT, but we CAN NEVER BE JUDGED BY IT.

Pauls explanation of If you're married, and you take another partner you commit adultery, but if the husband dies you can take another husband and it's not adultery, in the same way the Law is dead to us, fulfilled and buried, never to judge us again. So if you live under the law, you have fallen from grace, if you trust in the One who fulfilled the law, His righteousness is once and for all imputed to us, and the law, while we instinctively live by it "I will put my law in their hearts", we will never be judged by it. END

Cool answer! Praise God!

 

[Jason1]

I understand brother, by the way do we comment above your quote or below it? Thanks for any help.
Yes I understand, I'm just telling you, study first century Judaism, it's fascinating, when THEY SAID "Heaven and Earth", they meant THE TEMPLE, just fact, so when Jesus said that, He was saying "The Temple (Place of worship, place of redemption) will pass away, but my words will never pass away". It doesn't even make sense in a formal sense, for Heaven and Earth will never pass away, but be CHANGED.

This earth is our ETERNAL HOME, like us, it will be destroyed and resurrected, Psalm 79:68 says the "Earth is established FOREVER" emphasis mine. Ecc. 1:4 says "But the Earth abides FOREVER", so contradiction? That's where we Christians get in trouble, trust me critics are at the door waiting to pounce on you, no, no contradiction, Jesus reference, per the way they spoke then meant "Heaven and Earth" as the temple.

Yes, the Earth will ABIDE FOREVER, but so will we, so what is the answer? It will be CHANGED, with great fire (sounds like Atoms falling apart and being changed, just my speculation) BUT what's not speculation is that the Heavens and Earth will last FOREVER, it's just that they will be CHANGED, as us "We shall be changed", so your body will live forever, in a glorified state of course, the Earth and Heaven will last forever, just in a resurrected form

Thanks

Yes, I will definitely look into that. I think I may have heard this in the past as a hebrew idiom but had totally forgotten. It does make sense for sure and I agree with the rest of your analysis.

Thanks

(post below the quote)

 

[Calv1]

One other thing brother, IF the law were still in effect, we'd die by it, that's it's purpose, "With the law comes sin, with sin death". Paul's HUGE admonition to the Galatians, please study Galatians IS THAT THEY RETURNED TO THE LAW. He said "After being saved by faith are you returning to the law", I mean just ask Paul what he thinks of the law, he even says "So is then the law sin"? And answers "by no means, if not for the law I would not know sin". EVERY world Religion lives by a law, one or the other, but still MERIT, one of my favorite sayings was from John Bunyon, he suffered horribly from Scrupulosity (Religious OCD), almost killed himself (Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners), his saying was simple, "MY Righteousness is in Heaven", so what did he mean, he simply meant that there is no righteousness in him, on his best day he violates the law (I think it's Heidelberg, yeah that one), where they go through the commandments, and then show many ways in which we violate each command, man you read that, trust me all self-sufficiency shall fall off, CHRIST IS MY RIGHTEOUSNESS, He didn't merely take the just punishment for my sins, but His righteousness was inputed to us the day we trusted in Him as Lord and SAVIOR, the Spirit applies His righteousness to us, our flesh is dead, but our spirits are alive, RIGHTEOUS, I know if we know our heart it's tough, but it's scripture.

I comment again only because its so dangerous, Paul said to those following the law "you have fallen from righteousness", not lost just not in grace as you are trying to merit Heaven instead of receiving it as a free gift from the finished, once for all finished work of Christ. And what's remarkable is that as we trust Christ, we hate sin! I've tried the exhaustive works life, it's awful, and I sinned more, but by Sola Fide I ended up doing much better.

Luther, when he was a Augustinian monk, brutalized himself, that's what they did, they ate bland food, slept on hard rock beds, they'd beat themselves, even lay naked in the snow, anything to "kill the flesh", he said if he stayed he'd probably have died. Anyways he said "Believing in Christ alone is much harder than all of my days in monkary". They asked Jesus, "What WORK shall we do"? Jesus said "Here is the work of the Father, TO BELIEVE ON THE ONE HE SENT". Please get this in your being.

The Law of Moses has not been abolished, because heaven and earth has not yet passed away, hence "unit heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law..." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least...". Even Paul says, "we do not nullify the Law by this faith, but we uphold the Law". Lets discuss.

 

[GadgetJim]

So, if I am not worshipping God on Saturday, am I going to hell ... ? I thought that I was saved by doing what the Bible says in Romans 10:9-10 ...

9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (Romans 10:9-10, ESV)

 

[HankD]

Has the Law of Moses Been Abolished?

That depends on what you mean.

Jesus said that not one jot (Hebrew yod) or tittle (Hebrew Dagesh Forte) would pass from the law until all was fulfilled and heaven and earth passed away.

So in that sense NO, NEVER, it's still there in the Bible section called the Torah The first five books of the Bible. Genesis, Exodus,Leviticus,Numbers and Deuteronomy.

The Torah contains several hundred "commandments" called mitvouth (mitzvah - singular).

There are 613 mitzvouth in Torah. This body of commandments is the Law of Moses given to Israel.

About 200 of these commandments require the Temple in Jerusalem and/or the descendants of Aaron the levitcal priesthood to officiate the mitvouth.

In AD70 the Roman general Titus sacked Jerusalem, destroyed the temple and murdered the temple priesthood along with millions of the citizens of Jerusalem.

The Romans Destroy the Temple at Jerusalem, 70 AD

Biblical Judaism ended that year.

The Law of Moses cannot be kept, there is no temple, there is no identifiable officiating Leviticus priesthood.

Jews participate in Talmudic Judaism, a sad and empty practice drained of its glory.

Some of the ignorant say "keep what you can of it".

OK do that - keep every jot and tittle

You either keep it all every jot and tittle or you are "cursed" according to the word of God

Deuteronomy 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

The Law cannot save us - only condemn us.
Yes the Law is good and holy, the words of Jehovah, but the Law will destroy us as it was meant to do to bring us down in our pride and cry out to God for mercy.

Jesus Christ is our only hope.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Come to Him now while there is still time.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

HankD

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Law of Moses has not been abolished, because heaven and earth has not yet passed away, hence "unit heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass away from the Law..." and "whoever sets aside the least of the commands, will be called least...". Even Paul says, "we do not nullify the Law by this faith, but we uphold the Law". Lets discuss.

In the thread The Three-fold division of the Law The Three-Fold Division of the Law I tried to show that the ceremonial and judicial laws had been fulfilled in Christ, but the moral law, summarized in the Ten Commandments and epitomized in the Royal Law of Mark 12:29-31, still stands (Romans 13:8-10). This is the Law that is written on the hearts of believers (Hebrews 8:10).

I work this out in much greater detail on the other thread. I hope I don't have to repeat it all here.