Have a Beer! It may be sinful NOT TO!

[Luke2427]

I am most certainly on topic. Both cocaine and alcohol have medicinal and proper uses in moderation.

Excellent. Then they can both be used. But let's not pretend that beer is comparable to street cocaine. Maybe you're not- but let's don't.

From your stories, you're the last person on earth who needs to be advocating daily alcohol use. Have you considered that in order to come to grips with what you witnessed, you had to somehow make SOME alcohol drinking okay?

If these were your birth parents, you're likely more genetically inclined to addiction and best off totally staying away from the stuff. Please consider doing so for the safety of your own self and those around you.

You have YET to deal with the pure FACT that HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people drink regularly responsibly.

If you become a drunkard from drinking it is the same reason you become a pervert from having access to sex. It is an internal problem.

My Mom is no longer a drunk. She is a Christian. But she does drink. What's the difference? Why is she not falling down drunk every day, today? Because she does not have the internal issues she had then.

Drunkenness, like all sins, is a matter of the heart.

We don't tell people to stop eating and hook themselves up to I.V.'s for nutrition so that they can keep from becoming gluttons.

It makes no more sense to tell people not to drink for the same reasons.

I have a man in my church who was a drunkard about eight years ago. He got saved. He went a few years without drinking at all. Now he drinks a few beers a week and a margarita whenever he goes out to eat.

He's been doing this for two years and he is one of the best members in our church. He brings more people to church than anyone else. He teaches a growing Sunday School class. He leads people to Christ. He works on our family life center. He works at his job about 50 hours a week.

Drunkenness, Gina, is a HEART problem.

It's not a contest of who has the biggest story...it's a case of common sense. It isn't common sense to advocate using alcohol daily and you haven't supported it one whit with scripture.

You've not condemned it with one "whit" of Scripture.

Nor have you even ADDRESSED any of our arguments.

You just keep regurgitating all of this emotional nonsense that is not based in logic or Scripture.

I can't believe you've gone what you've been through, know what nastiness addiction can cause, yet still would encourage the many, many people who come read here to use alcohol regularly. I sure hope nobody on here takes that terrible advice.

I hope they are delivered from a FAR worse evil addiction- the addiction of self-righteousness, ignorance and phariseeism.

I do not think there is any more danger in drinking responsibly than there is in eating responsibly.

Less since heart disease is the NUMBER ONE KILLER of men.

Your words mean something. Is it worth risking the creation of more alcoholics in this world in order for you to win some anonymous internet argument? No, it isn't. That's childish and I hope it stops.

Since you used the word "childish" let me tell you what I think you are being- stupid.

You don't make arguments.

You preach without Scripture.

Your appeal is strictly emotive.

You don't address arguments.

You call something dangerous that HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of people do, WHOLE NATIONS DO, MOST OF THE HISTORY OF CHRISTIANS DO AND HAVE DONE.

I think that's dumb.

If it is childish what I am doing- then MOST CHRISTIANS in HISTORY have been childish and you are more mature than BILLIONS of Christians- including the authors of SCRIPTURE.

Not only is that DUMB- it is also extremely self-righteous and ARROGANT.

 

[Arbo]

I always find threads about drinking alcohol interesting and, on some level, amusing. This one's no different.

A few thoughts:
1. Much of what shapes people's views on drinking is society. It's viewed differently in the U.S. than in other places. For instance, in Sweden, Germany, France, or Italy, it's not considered as much of a vice as it is here.

2. I think the concern about maintaining a proper testimony is a valid one. That is why while we are in the States, we do not drink socially.

3. It was said that no one intends to be an alcoholic when they have their first drink. I suppose that's true, but not every one who takes a drink is an alcoholic.

4. A few years ago I asked my doctor's medical opinion, and he advocated it.

 

[Skandelon]

What many don't seem to understand is that Christians are doing more harm than good by teaching that drinking alcohol is wrong. You are actually promoting alcoholism.

The scripture is clear on this. Where the law increases, sin increases ALL THE MORE! Making alcohol a shameful thing and trying to guilt people to abstain is not only unbiblical but it will cause the VERY thing you are attempting to prevent. You make alcohol daring and dangerous to the rebellious teen because its the 'forbidden vice.' Study other cultures that don't treat alcohol with this contempt and you will see much less issues with teen drinking.

You teetotalers are shooting yourselves in the foot because your actions only promote the very behaviors you try so hard to prevent. It's like when liberals think more gun laws will reduce gun crimes. It NEVER works, and in fact stats show that less gun laws equal less gun crimes. Guns are a lot like alcohol, they both can be dangerous when misused, but they also both can be beneficial and useful when handled correctly.

 

[Luke2427]

What many don't seem to understand is that Christians are doing more harm than good by teaching that drinking alcohol is wrong. You are actually promoting alcoholism.

The scripture is clear on this. Where the law increases, sin increases ALL THE MORE! Making alcohol a shameful thing and trying to guilt people to abstain is not only unbiblical but it will cause the VERY thing you are attempting to prevent. You make alcohol daring and dangerous to the rebellious teen because its the 'forbidden vice.' Study other cultures that don't treat alcohol with this contempt and you will see much less issues with teen drinking.

You teetotalers are shooting yourselves in the foot because your actions only promote the very behaviors you try so hard to prevent. It's like when liberals think more gun laws will reduce gun crimes. It NEVER works, and in fact stats show that less gun laws equal less gun crimes. Guns are a lot like alcohol, they both can be dangerous when misused, but they also both can be beneficial and useful when handled correctly.

You nailed it.

I guarantee that no one will argue against this post. They will snipe perhaps at a distance while avoiding the core of this argument- but they will not square off against the actual argument you make here.

 

[Gina B]

What many don't seem to understand is that Christians are doing more harm than good by teaching that drinking alcohol is wrong. You are actually promoting alcoholism.

The scripture is clear on this. Where the law increases, sin increases ALL THE MORE! Making alcohol a shameful thing and trying to guilt people to abstain is not only unbiblical but it will cause the VERY thing you are attempting to prevent. You make alcohol daring and dangerous to the rebellious teen because its the 'forbidden vice.' Study other cultures that don't treat alcohol with this contempt and you will see much less issues with teen drinking.

You teetotalers are shooting yourselves in the foot because your actions only promote the very behaviors you try so hard to prevent. It's like when liberals think more gun laws will reduce gun crimes. It NEVER works, and in fact stats show that less gun laws equal less gun crimes. Guns are a lot like alcohol, they both can be dangerous when misused, but they also both can be beneficial and useful when handled correctly.

The same thing could be said for cocaine. By saying not to use it daily, we make it dangerous and daring to rebellious teens because it's forbidden.

It is more dangerous to take away prohibitions against harmful things than to allow them in order to prevent the rebellious from desiring them too much.

There is no Biblical precedent to do so and it flies in the face of reason.

 

[Bronconagurski]

What many don't seem to understand is that Christians are doing more harm than good by teaching that drinking alcohol is wrong. You are actually promoting alcoholism.

The scripture is clear on this. Where the law increases, sin increases ALL THE MORE! Making alcohol a shameful thing and trying to guilt people to abstain is not only unbiblical but it will cause the VERY thing you are attempting to prevent. You make alcohol daring and dangerous to the rebellious teen because its the 'forbidden vice.' Study other cultures that don't treat alcohol with this contempt and you will see much less issues with teen drinking.

You teetotalers are shooting yourselves in the foot because your actions only promote the very behaviors you try so hard to prevent. It's like when liberals think more gun laws will reduce gun crimes. It NEVER works, and in fact stats show that less gun laws equal less gun crimes. Guns are a lot like alcohol, they both can be dangerous when misused, but they also both can be beneficial and useful when handled correctly.

When I was in high school the admin tried to use that pyschology on us. They gave us 6 days a quarter that we could be absent and all reasons were acceptable. They figured that we would go to school since skipping was no longer getting away with anything. Previously they knew students were forging notes when they were laying out because if your absence was unexcused, you got a zero in every class that day. They had to do away with the policy after the first year as we broke all records for students missing school. Why don't we just legalize pot, cocaine and give our kids condoms? You know why. When I was a teen, I didn't drink or smoke because I could not, I did it because my friends were doing it.

I don't agree with total abstinence of alcohol because I don't think the bible teaches that. But I think it is warranted in some instances.

 

[Skandelon]

The same thing could be said for cocaine.

There are similarities, but that would be like equating my 380 handgun, used for personal protection, with a tank, used for a joy ride.

Cocaine is a powerfully addictive stimulant that directly affects the brain. The pure chemical, cocaine hydrochloride, has been an abused substance for more than 100 years and coca leaves, the source of cocaine, have been ingested for thousands of years.

Pure cocaine was first extracted from the leaf of the Erythroxylon coca bush, which grows primarily in Peru and Bolivia, in the mid-19th century. In the early 1900s, it became the main stimulant drug used in most of the tonics/elixirs that were developed to treat a wide variety of illnesses. Today, cocaine is a Schedule II drug, meaning that it has high potential for abuse but can be administered by a doctor for legitimate medical uses, such as local anesthesia for some eye, ear, and throat surgeries. - Medical Research Journal​

But like a tank, it can be used for good and it can be abused.

By saying not to use it daily, we make it dangerous and daring to rebellious teens because it's forbidden.

Study the cultures. Where alcohol is not condemned by government or religious groups, but instead is taught its safe and proper use (moderation) there is much less issues surrounding teen abuse and drunk driving. Those are just facts.

It is more dangerous to take away prohibitions against harmful things than to allow them in order to prevent the rebellious from desiring them too much. There is no Biblical precedent to do so and it flies in the face of reason.

There is no biblical precedents to taking way prohibitions against things that can be used for good or evil? Is that your contention? Hmmmm

I'm going to have to go eat some bacon and think on that for while. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Gina B]

Lifting prohibitions against harmful things for the sake of the weak (rebellious) is what I said. Yep, goes against logic AND defies not being a stumbling block.

On another subject, I'm gonna take away that bacon if you keep using "is" instead of "are." :tongue3:

On that grammatical note, I gotta go push my dear husband over to his c-pap machine or NOBODY is gonna get any sleep.

Have a good night!

 

[Skandelon]

Facts:

"Inability of the prohibition law to enforce prohibition is causing an increase in the number of young boys and girls who become intoxicated," declared Judge H. C. Spicer of the juvenile court at Akron, Ohio, a short time ago when two boys, aged 15 and 16 years, respectively, were arraigned before him. "During the past two years," he added " there have been more intoxicated children brought into court than ever before."​

"Statement by Hon. William Cabell Bruce, The National Prohibition Law, Hearings before the Subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Sixty-Ninth Congress, April 5 to 24, 1926"

Drinking at an earlier age was also noted, particularly during the first few years of Prohibition. The superintendents of eight state mental hospitals reported a larger percentage of young patients during Prohibition (1919-1926) than formerly. One of the hospitals noted: "During the past year (1926), an unusually large group of patients who are of high school age were admitted for alcoholic psychosis" (Brown, 1932:176).​

 

[Skandelon]

Lifting prohibitions against harmful things

Fallacy: Begging the question by presuming Alcohol can only be classified in the 'harmful' category when that is one of the points up for debate. As it has been shown, alcohol can also be beneficial and enjoyable.

for the sake of the weak (rebellious)

The 'weak' brethren referred to in Romans 14, were the believers whose conscience was 'weak' and felt the need to abstain from eating meat, for much of the same reasons that you want to abstain from drink. Thus, the 'weak' (according to Paul) is not referring to the rebellious, but the legalistic (the abstainers, like yourself).

Yep, goes against logic AND defies not being a stumbling block.

I believe legalism is a much larger stumbling block than license.

On another subject, I'm gonna take away that bacon if you keep using "is" instead of "are." :tongue3:

Oh, its just like the legalist to correct my grammar too. :love2:

On that grammatical note, I gotta go push my dear husband over to his c-pap machine or NOBODY is gonna get any sleep.

Have a good night!

You too! :sleep:

 

[psalms109:31]

I work in the real world at a normal 8-5. two best friends one i work with. He was always talking good things about his best friend. They were drinking watching the Cowboy and Giants game drinking. His best friend ended up beating his head to a pulp and put him in the hospital, then his cousin found the one who put their cousin in the hospital and put him in a hospital. I talked to many that have DUI's and how it destroyed their lives, Our divorce rate as Christian is high as the worlds divorce rate. The church for a long time made my city i live in dry and many have stopped fighting it and now it is wet.


We are suppose to make the world jealous and be different from them through Christ who saved us.

Like I said and another said in other countries like Germany they drink at church functions. I had a friend that worked over there and said that and they also take your tithe directly out of your check it is mandatory to give to your church or an organization.

This is a very touchy subject with any who lost something from this and others believe it is O.K. God allowed it, but God does give us over to our own desires. To teach us maybe it isn't a good thing. You wanted men to be your King over God to be like everyone else and He gave it to you and they have done everything He said they would.

God hates divorce and He allows it.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Yes, and almost every community has registered sex offenders who can hardly bear to see children playing hop scotch or jump rope outside without being overwhelmed with evil desires.

As you like to say your are illogically comparing apples and oranges. So you are arguing that it is all right to drink and temp an alcoholic to "fall off the wagon" and bring back all the problems them have struggled to avoid.

What is your responsibility in your witness to others. Are you allowed to do anything you want without regard to others?

I find it very strange how strongly you defend drinking. It sounds as if you are trying to convince a guilty conscious not to feel guilty.

Also it would seem, from your comments, you have little or no sympathy for anyone with any problem. That must be comforting to your congregation.

Wow, advocating hyper-Calvinism and actions that may lead to alcoholism. Quite a combination for a preacher.

 

[Skandelon]

I work in the real world at a normal 8-5. two best friends one i work with. He was always talking good things about his best friend. They were drinking watching the Cowboy and Giants game drinking. His best friend ended up beating his head to a pulp and put him in the hospital, then his cousin found the one who put their cousin in the hospital and put him in a hospital. I talked to many that have DUI's and how it destroyed their lives, Our divorce rate as Christian is high as the worlds divorce rate. The church for a long time made my city i live in dry and many have stopped fighting it and now it is wet.

And I can tell you of many stories of people misusing fire and burning down homes, neighborhoods and even cities, but do we condemn the use of fire all together, or do we promote the proper use of fire?

Same stories with guns, paint (which is huffed), markers (sniffed), sex and about a thousand more things which can be used for good or evil.

We are suppose to make the world jealous and be different from them through Christ who saved us.

You are exactly RIGHT, and when all the world knows is what you are against they will never become 'jealous' of you (they feel judged by you). We live differently by using God's gifts correctly and enjoying life without becoming enslaved by that which God has given us to enjoy.

 

[Skandelon]

As you like to say your are illogically comparing apples and oranges. So you are arguing that it is all right to drink and temp an alcoholic to "fall off the wagon" and bring back all the problems them have struggled to avoid.

I don't think anyone is saying that Crabtownboy. As Romans 14 teaches, if you know that the weaker brother is abstaining then it would be best to abstain for his sake. I think we'd all be more than willing (and even insistent) on abstaining in the presences of someone who requests it or needs it.

But there is a difference between that and teaching the evils of drinking, shaming people who choose to drink and judging them as sinners when the scriptures never say drinking is sin.

I find it very strange how strongly you defend drinking. It sounds as if you are trying to convince a guilty conscious not to feel guilty.

Was Paul trying to make his guilty conscious not to feel guilty when he spoke of the freedom to eat meat in Romans 14? Was he covering his guilt when he told Timothy to drink wine occasionally for his health?

I assure you that I don't feel the least bit guilty about partaking (and I doubt seriously Luke does either.) That is the joy of freedom. The burden is light on this side of freedom.

Also it would seem, from your comments, you have little or no sympathy for anyone with any problem. That must be comforting to your congregation.

I doubt that is true. Luke does come across harshly on this forum, I agree, but I imagine him to be a very kind and understanding pastor to his people. The written form of a debate forum can misconstrue much about one's tone and personality.

 

[psalms109:31]

And I can tell you of many stories of people misusing fire and burning down homes, neighborhoods and even cities, but do we condemn the use of fire all together, or do we promote the proper use of fire?

Same stories with guns, paint (which is huffed), markers (sniffed), sex and about a thousand more things which can be used for good or evil.

You are exactly RIGHT, and when all the world knows is what you are against they will never become 'jealous' of you (they feel judged by you). We live differently by using God's gifts correctly and enjoying life without becoming enslaved by that which God has given us to enjoy.

Lets promote all those things to believers right.

If people want to do wicked things with what God gives them, let them make that choice and be accountable for their own action. We shouldn't promote it, nor condemn anyone for doing it.

Alcohol just like fire isn't bad it is just the way it is used is what is bad.

Everything is lawful for me, but not everything edifies. I will not make alcohol my master is all i am saying

 

[psalms109:31]

I didn't drink at all and was in the Army and had service with communion the Lord's supper with real wine. I will never forgot how warm it felt going down like a cleansing throughout my body. Now that was wine that held a significance's in my life and wine that was used for a good thing. What the blood of Christ is doing in the inside of us.

 

[InTheLight]

They were drinking watching the Cowboy and Giants game drinking. His best friend ended up beating his head to a pulp and put him in the hospital, then his cousin found the one who put their cousin in the hospital and put him in a hospital.

Maybe they should abstain from watching football...

 

[Gina B]

Two addictive substances, both of which can be used medicinally, are certainly much alike and good for comparison, while using examples of fire vs addictive drugs like alcohol or cocaine, or using acting out physically in a sinful way vs using alcohol or cocaine is pretty silly. There's logic in comparing two addictive and highly abused ingested substances in our world, but what is the logic in comparing using fire to ingesting drugs?

 

[Gina B]

I didn't drink at all and was in the Army and had service with communion the Lord's supper with real wine. I will never forgot how warm it felt going down like a cleansing throughout my body. Now that was wine that held a significance's in my life and wine that was used for a good thing. What the blood of Christ is doing in the inside of us.

We used to do this in temple...even the kids. The cup was passed around and that whole communion cup was enough for all. There was no need for anyone to have a full cup of it to get the point and I never remember getting sick from sharing that cup, probably because the alcohol helped kill off germs.

 

[Skandelon]

Two addictive substances

Alcohol is ONLY addictive if it is abused, cocaine immediately alters the brain and is dangerous if not not administered by a doctor. Maybe a better comparison for you to understand this would be over the counter medication versus prescription. The reason they have prescription drugs is because some substances must be monitored by a doctor. Over the counter drugs are legal, but can still be abused...just like alcohol. Other more dangerous substances need to be monitored. Hopefully that will help you see the distinction.

You've just told us that you drink wine for the Lord's supper, so what exactly are we debating? Either drinking alcohol is sinful or it isn't. Should I ask you if you would take Cocaine for religious purposes like you did wine, because that is basically what you have argued against us?

There's logic in comparing two addictive and highly abused ingested substances in our world, but what is the logic in comparing using fire to ingesting drugs?

Both can be used for good or for evil....and even fire starting can be very addictive, it called being a "Pyromaniac." The point is that alcohol can be partaken in a good manner (as you affirmed for yourself already), or it can be used for evil. Are you arguing that it can only be used for religious purposes, otherwise it is sinful?