Dan Stiles
New Member
Yes, they both stand before the judgement seat. That is all the farther you wanted to pursue that answer, isn't it John?
[ November 18, 2002, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Dan Stiles ]
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Have you studied Islam?
- Thread starter neal4christ
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[ November 18, 2002, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Dan Stiles ]
That's all we're equipped to answer. We know that each person receives judgement before God, and that we're judged by our faith and according to our works. But the judgement is God's and not ours, and we as Christians are warned that, when we judge someone in a manner that is reserved for God, we judge oursleves.
As a Christian I know that I will stand before the Judgement Seat of Christ and be judged according to my works along with other believers. My salvation is secure. It will not be in question or under judgement. Only the works after salvation will be judged. You can read about this in 1Cor.3:11-15.
All Muslims will appear before the Great White Throne Judgement, and ultimately be thrown into the Lake of Fire, for their names are not written in the Book of Life. I will not be present at that judgement.
Yes we will all be judged; but not at the same time, and not at the same judgement. I fear for those that are not saved, and have rejected Christ as Lord and Saviour.
DHK
JOHNV, what do YOU expect to happen to YOU when YOU die ?
The same as Muslims ?
Are you a Muslim ?
The same as Muslims ?
Are you a Muslim ?
Johnv stated,
Are you implying a faithful Muslim can go to Heaven apart from faith in Christ? Would you not at least agree that all who are faithful to the teachings of the Koran will go into everlasting damnation. The Word of God judges Muslims or anyone else who is not a Christian as condemned and under the judgment of God unless they embrace Christ (John 3:18,36)
Are you implying a faithful Muslim can go to Heaven apart from faith in Christ?
I imply no such thing.
Why is it assumed that, because I disagree with statements made on this board about Islam, the I'm either a Muslim or that I think people apart from Christ are saved?
Would you not at least agree that all who are faithful to the teachings of the Koran will go into everlasting damnation.
I would agree that those who have heard the Gospel and not accept it are not saved.
JOHNV, what do YOU expect to happen to YOU when YOU die ?
I expect that I will be judged by my faith, and according to my works.
The same as Muslims ?
Same as anyone who has heard the Gospel.
Are you a Muslim ?
No. But I don't think it's a dirty word, either.
[ November 19, 2002, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
I imply no such thing.
Why is it assumed that, because I disagree with statements made on this board about Islam, the I'm either a Muslim or that I think people apart from Christ are saved?
Would you not at least agree that all who are faithful to the teachings of the Koran will go into everlasting damnation.
I would agree that those who have heard the Gospel and not accept it are not saved.
JOHNV, what do YOU expect to happen to YOU when YOU die ?
I expect that I will be judged by my faith, and according to my works.
The same as Muslims ?
Same as anyone who has heard the Gospel.
Are you a Muslim ?
No. But I don't think it's a dirty word, either.
[ November 19, 2002, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
The problem with this paradigm is that 99% of Muslims have never heard the gospel. They live in Muslim nations, not in America where the gospel permeates throughout the land via different modes of media. Islamic clerics teach their adherents (their flock) that Christianity has three gods, that God the Father had a wife, in order for Christ the Son to be born. They do not believe that Christ even died, much less that He died for our sins!
A Muslim believing the gospel??
DHK
I'm sure we could start a whole thread on the fate of those who have never heard the Gospel, and, therefore, have not had an opportunity to accept or reject Christ's gift of salvation. But that would get us way off topic. We could go on and on about babies, invalids, imbiciles, bushmen of the Kalihari, etc etc.
If someone wants to start that topic elsewhere, feel free, and I'd happily comment in that forum.
If someone wants to start that topic elsewhere, feel free, and I'd happily comment in that forum.
GraceSaves
New Member
DHK,
If you are saying it's impossible for many Muslims to ever hear the Gospel, and that Muslims who do not know the Gospel will go to hell, are you saying that God predestined these people to go to hell, since they never had the chance to know the Truth about Christ?
If this is a Baptist belief, then you can bet I'll never be Baptist. We are saved ONLY by Christ's blood, but God is merciful, and God can apply Christ's blood to those who never had the chance to know Him. Why? Because He's God. Does He? I don't know - I'll ask when I get to Heaven. Until then, I won't presume anything.
God bless,
Grant
If you are saying it's impossible for many Muslims to ever hear the Gospel, and that Muslims who do not know the Gospel will go to hell, are you saying that God predestined these people to go to hell, since they never had the chance to know the Truth about Christ?
If this is a Baptist belief, then you can bet I'll never be Baptist. We are saved ONLY by Christ's blood, but God is merciful, and God can apply Christ's blood to those who never had the chance to know Him. Why? Because He's God. Does He? I don't know - I'll ask when I get to Heaven. Until then, I won't presume anything.
God bless,
Grant
Romans 10:13-15
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
I don't completely understand the verse in Titus but I accept its teaching by faith, that the grace of God that brings salvation will appear to all me. In other words, God will give to every man the chance to repent and trust Christ as Saviour.
That example is given in the Book of Acts where Cornelius was truly searching for the truth, and God sent to him Peter to give to him the truth of the gospel.
Muslims as a whole have rejected the gospel. But there are Muslims that are seeking after the truth. Somehow God will send someone to them to reveal it to them. If they don't care about it, but want to blindly follow their leaders into falsehood, they may never hear the truth. God knows their hearts. "How shall they hear without preacher." The onus is on the Christian community to go and tell them the good news of the gospel. Christ sent out 12 men with the Great Commission to evangelize the world. He had no other plan. The Great Commission is still applicable to believers today. He has no other plan. We are commanded to go with the gospel. "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace."
DHK
Chapter and verse please.
Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father except by me."
"By their fruits ye shall know them?"
Beware of false prophets....
Any other gospel but Christ is anti-Christ.
Those are just a few Scriptural truths which come to mind at the moment.
I stand by what I said. Islam is a false religion that is sending millions of people to hell. It is a LIE from the father of Lies. Islam denies Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Islam is a religion based upon works, not upon salvation through Jesus Christ.
Speaking the truth is not condemnation. NOT speaking the truth will bring condemntation. "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."
In this thread you deny you are Muslim. In another thread, I vaguely remember you saying you had relatives who are Muslim. Aren't you concerned about their salvation? Or are Baptist missionaries to Muslims wasting their time, in your opinion?
My grandmother was a Muslim who became a Christian (unless you don't think Lutherans are Christians). Her salvation wasn't an issue. Unfortunately, she died when I was very young, and I no concrete memory of her.
As far as whether Baptist missionaries are wasting their time: Any missionary who goes out, talks about the Gospel and leaves is not, in my opinion, spreading the Gospel (see also the thread about those who have never heard the Gospel). Spreading the Gospel involves doing and being, not talking.
[ November 20, 2002, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
As far as whether Baptist missionaries are wasting their time: Any missionary who goes out, talks about the Gospel and leaves is not, in my opinion, spreading the Gospel (see also the thread about those who have never heard the Gospel). Spreading the Gospel involves doing and being, not talking.
[ November 20, 2002, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
That sounds like the Christian God to me. He revealed himself to Abram as El and to Melchizidek as El-Elyon. Abram did not say "Wait a minute, you'd better start using El instead."
Anyway, I have studied Islam somewhat and though I have never read the Quran I would very much like to, for a couple reasons. First, if you want to witness to someone, you must understand what they believe. Second, you have to be sensitive to their social and religious culture. How can anyone expect to be an effective witness to Muslims who also insults them to other Christians? That's unacceptable. Many Christians who witness to Muslims inadvertently offend them simply because they don't know the cultural background. For example, I had a friend who was witnessing to a Muslim man using his Bible, in which he had highlighted several passages, made notes in the margins, etc. And he wondered why the man was not impressed at all! They see the Quran as a holy book to be completely respected. This man saw that my friend had written in his Bible, and that said to him that Christians do not respect their holy book, and that was all he needed to be turned off. We should do whatever possible to not turn Muslims (or any other people, for that matter) off to the Gospel - and like it or not, that means doing things their way sometimes, especially if you are in their territory.
If your friend, Blush is in Canada or North America, are you suggesting that we should accomodate to the Muslim culture in witnessing to the Muslim? One can point out to them that we do not worship our Bibles, that it is the printed page only of God's Word. God meant it to be studied. Now if I was in their country I would be more careful to adapt to some of their customs so as not to offend. A Muslim coming to our country needs to learn to adapt to our culture; not the other way around.
DHK
DHK
What is "our culture"? Catholic? It is if you are a hispanic from California, or Italian from New York. Calvinist Reformed? It is if you are a dutchman from Iowa. Mormon? It is if you are from Utah. Lutheran? It is if you're a german from Anaheim. Jewish? Buddhist? Anglican? Native American Indian?
Religious culture aside, what of polish culture? German culture? English culture? Italian culture? Japanese culture? Spanish culture? Much of each of these cultures have little to do with the others.
Or do you assert that if a man from Puerto Rico doesn't like it here, he should go back to his own country??
Religious culture aside, what of polish culture? German culture? English culture? Italian culture? Japanese culture? Spanish culture? Much of each of these cultures have little to do with the others.
Or do you assert that if a man from Puerto Rico doesn't like it here, he should go back to his own country??
Since there is only one God, I worship the Almighty God. I assert that many non-Christians in the world worship the Almighty God. However, their view of God is often incomplete, misguided, mispercieved, or in error. Since I grew up with the Bible, the God of the OT and NT is what I know. My belief that my view of God via the Bible is an accurate picture is one of faith. I do not require, nor do I want, anyone to prove it to me (otherwise, we wouldn't call it faith).
Canada, where Elaine (Blush) and I come from is a multi-cultural country. Much emphasis is put on multiculturalism. It is taught in the schools. Our culture is pluralistic and secular. Humanism is taught in the schools as a religion. However, people of differing religions come to our nations and demand their rights because they are minorities. When they come they come with their baggage (religion, culture, mores, etc.), which sometimes are in conflict with ours.
Multiculturalism, though viewed as a good thing to many, is used to break down barriers between cultures. That may sound good on the surface. But when you get some of our own "Christian" political figures going to the mosques to pray with the local Muslims to show tolerance to other religions; when such actions are promoted in the public schools: "Christians" visiting "mosques" and "worshiping" with Muslims, then multiculturism has gone too far.
We, for all intents and purposes, do not live in a Christian nation (not in America or in Canada). It is secular and humanistic. When Muslims come here, we need to witness to them. If they use the excuse that you have a marked up Bible, then they probably are just looking for an excuse not to listen to you. They are not ready to here the gospel yet. If they don't use that excuse they will find another. When they are ready to hear the Word, they won't make excuses--they will listen.
DHK